Thyro L


Barhaug@...
 

What do you all think of Thyro L? Do you think it works? If I call my vet, I know she's going to tell me to put my mare on it and drop her feed ration down to 12 lbs. I live in cody, wy. I'm new to the group, and trying to go through the steps properly. I hope that I do. My mare is 1250lbs. I know that's too much. I had her on uckele equi base, Gut, absorball, glycocemic eq powder, and coco soya, but she decided that she didn't like the glycocemic eq powder, so she just quit eating it. So, I struggled and struggled with it, but finally gave up on that, and just got the equi base in her. She was out on pasture full time too cause it had been cut in fall and was completely yellow. So, she was off of glyco eq for about two weeks and then came in sore a week and two days ago. I dry lotted her then along with her 29 yr mentor, (who needs to be eating all the time). She didn't seem too bad then, but the past four days, she has seemed worse. I finally got her to eat the glycocemic eq pellets (started this last Thursday night). Before that, I was trying to fill in with animed remission. It just seems like I can't get her any better, right now. I'm trying to learn natural hoof care, so when it first happened, I filed more on her "mustang roll" to try to take leverage off her walls...I just don't know what else to do right now, and I know if I call the vet she's going to have me put her on Thyro L, give her banamine, and tell me to drop her down to 10-12 lbs. it's been since the fall before this last fall that she had an episode. She's been getting the above minerals in about 1/2 to (max) 3/4 lb (split into two feedings) soaked Timothy hay pellets. She also gets third cutting Timothy grass hay at 20 lbs. no grass at all for last week and two days. And she also gets uckele liquid e. I have a hard time getting her to eat the glycocemic eq pellets without the coco soya. Do any of you have any suggestions? Do you think that I should go ahead with the Thyro L? 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hello Barhaug,

Welcome to the group! 

Sorry your mare is having these issues. You are posting fine, it's just that your first post is always moderated so it may take a bit of time to appear. From now on, all your posts will go thru automatically.

Whether Thyro-L works or not depends on why you are administering it. It does NOT help IR. If a horse is overweight and feeding it the proper amount of food for its ideal weight (plus exercise, when able) does not lead to weight loss, sometimes it can be temporarily helpful to add thyro-L to jump-start weight loss but this is being accomplished by making the horse intentionally hyperthyroid. ECIR does  not recommend this as you are creating another "disease" to get weight loss.The body will adjust to this by reducing the amount of thyroid hormone produced to compensate and bring the levels back down into the normal range so if you do this then decide to stop supplementing the thyro-L, it will need to be weaned off slowly to allow the body to restart its own production.

The best thing you can do for now is to put your mare on the emergency diet (specifics below under DIET). NO starvation as that will only backfire by making her metabolism go into hyper-conservation mode and make weight loss even harder. Feed her either 2% of her ideal weight or 1.5% of her current weight  - whichever is the larger amount - in total safe food per day, so no less than 18.75lbs per day. Specifics are in the DIET section below.

We are going to need more info to be able to provide more specific suggestions for you so please let us know as soon as you are able to get her Case History filled out and up (links below). Pictures of her feet would also be great (info in TRIM section below). The Glycocemic EQ is a good product but is only helpful if your overall diet needs more of the minerals it supplies - it's not a magic bullet. If the weather temps have suddenly dropped, there is a possibility that is part of the problem as that will push insulin up. Dormant grass can be quite high in sugar as well so it may be that your girl was teetering on the edge of a laminitis episode and the "perfect storm" of things happened to push her over the edge. Because third cutting hay is made late in the season, it could be higher in sugar+starch than an IR horse can handle. That your mare has had issues a couple of times in the fall is also a red flag for possible PPID (Cushings) being a part of the problem. Has she ever been tested for this or specifically for IR? Just being overweight does not mean she is IR - it just means she takes in more calories than she burns off.

IR-induced laminitis is not an inflammatory condition so NSAIDs (banamine is one) won't help.

The rest of this message contains our Official Welcome. It contains a ton of information so you might find it helpful to store it somewhere easy to access for future reference.


The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

In order to help you and your equine quickly and effectively, we need you to explain your equine's situation by following the instructions you were sent upon joining. Your completed case history form and ECIR Signature will save days of back and forth questions. If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. Follow the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up and then upload your case history. If you have any trouble, just post a message or email the case history group explaining specifically where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. You can set up an automatic signature so you don't have to remember to do it. 

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.
If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.


--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Cindy Giovanetti
 

Does the group recommend checking thyroid levels?

Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old group years ago.


 

Hi, Cindy - Primary hypothyroidism in horses is *extremely* rare.  "Euthyroid sick syndrome", a term for a thyroid gland that can function normally, but due to illness or other factors is fairly common:  Euthyroid sick syndrome is a condition in which serum levels of thyroid hormones are low in clinically euthyroid patients with nonthyroidal systemic illness. Diagnosis is based on excluding hypothyroidism. Treatment is directed toward the underlying illness; thyroid hormone replacement is not indicated.  (from Merck https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/endocrine-and-metabolic-disorders/thyroid-disorders/euthyroid-sick-syndrome  )

Much more commonly in our horses is just a low total T4, due to dietary, IR, or PPID issues:   Horses on medications such as bute or Trimethoprim sulfa, with chronic illness such as Cushing's disease, or in racing shape may have falsely decreased total T4. (from the Cornell test interpretations for equine thyroid panels  https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspx?Species=Equine&WebDisc=&TstTyp=&Test_Name=thyroid  )

So, you can check thyroid levels to get a baseline, then repeat once diet etc is more under control.  Get the Equine Thyroid panel if concerned: often one finds low total T4, but normal free T4 (which is available to be converted to active T3), and normal T3.

--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Barhaug@...
 

On Sat, Feb 23, 2019 at 09:52 PM, Jaini Clougher wrote:
Hi, Cindy - Primary hypothyroidism in horses is *extremely* rare.  "Euthyroid sick syndrome", a term for a thyroid gland that can function normally, but due to illness or other factors is fairly common:  Euthyroid sick syndrome is a condition in which serum levels of thyroid hormones are low in clinically euthyroid patients with nonthyroidal systemic illness. Diagnosis is based on excluding hypothyroidism. Treatment is directed toward the underlying illness; thyroid hormone replacement is not indicated.  (from Merck https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/endocrine-and-metabolic-disorders/thyroid-disorders/euthyroid-sick-syndrome  )

Much more commonly in our horses is just a low total T4, due to dietary, IR, or PPID issues:   Horses on medications such as bute or Trimethoprim sulfa, with chronic illness such as Cushing's disease, or in racing shape may have falsely decreased total T4. (from the Cornell test interpretations for equine thyroid panels  https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspx?Species=Equine&WebDisc=&TstTyp=&Test_Name=thyroid  )

So, you can check thyroid levels to get a baseline, then repeat once diet etc is more under control.  Get the Equine Thyroid panel if concerned: often one finds low total T4, but normal free T4 (which is available to be converted to active T3), and normal T3.

--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711
Did I already send this? I can't tell if it got sent or I forgot to press the send button....plz forgive me if I did already send it.  Thks!

 Thank you for your information and help. I couldn't get the case studies blanks to accept my typing for some reason yesterday, but I will keep working on it cause I really need some help. She seemed better yesterday afternoon (it warmed up). But this a.m. Was worse. It was around 4 degrees here and snowing. I have some questions that maybe can be answered while I'm working on the case studies: 

1. I did have her on cocosoya, but quit that because I was reading about soy on here yesterday. I am going to try to get some flax today, but can only find the "simply flax" by mana pro at tractor supply. Do you think that is all right to give her instead of the cocosoy?  How can you tell if flax goes bad? 

2. Is there anything that I can give her for the pain? She's walking. In the afternoons it's better. She's really not laying down more than normal, I think. But in the mornings it's like she doesn't even want to walk. She will, but it's like she doesn't even want to. 

3. I'm putting her minerals in soaked stand lee Timothy hay pellets. Should I use a different carrier? I use about 1/2 cup Timothy hay pellets a.m. And p.m. She doesn't seem to like anything that I've tried to give her that has the first ingredient as beet pulp.....

4. I have some uckele omega hoof. Should I give her some of that? 

5. Here's what I'm currently giving her: I split it into two feeding a.m. And p.m.:   4oz uckele equi base GRB, 2scoops uckele glycocemic eq, 1/2 tsp uckele liquid e.  I started this last night. I usually put 1/2 tsp Mediterranean Sea salt in it, but she was being a little picky with that , so I stopped that cause I wanted to make sure she got her minerals. I can give her a tiny extra Timothy hay pellets with just plain salt, and she eats that. 

I just oust feel like she should be way better by now, and am wondering if I'm giving or not giving her something that's making it worse instead of better.  Sorry my ipad is old and it won't let me go back to make corrections.

has anyone else just sent hay that they pull out of bales for analysis without using hay probe. 

Oh yeah. And she's never been tested. I just made the assumption that it was IR.....  I'll check into that. 

Oh. And I did have our grass tested before all this. And it has shown up as high in esc and starch in January: 15.  It was all completely yellow and short, but I've learned...... (Sigh)

but it is also high in calcium. To magnesium: 2:.5 and I'm sure our water is too cause we get lots of white powdery stuff around our faucets. 

A lot of people have had thyroid issues in this area. Some have had to have their thyroid removed. 

The vet had me put her on Thyro L the last time this happened, but we didn't monitor anything, and she told me I could just take her off of it, but I didn't listen to that, I just kind of tried to half it and then half it. But I'm sure that it wasn't the right way.....    

I know now all this should be in the case studies. I'm going to try to grt that done today. Thank you for your patience....

Thank you for your help I really appreciate

Northwest corner of wyoming
Christi Lynne
Scarlet


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Christi,

We really need to see a history to help you. The fact she moves easier later in the day suggests a circulatory component to her pain and there are ways to help with that but the base of diagnosis, diet and medication if needed has to be in place first.

As for thyroid supplementation, if you feed enough to induce hyperthyroidism it will cause weight loss but it does not have any effect on glucose handling or insulin resistance:

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2019&context=utk_graddiss
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Barhaug@...
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon.  I just uploaded my case history. I do not know how to find the link to my case history.  it is: christi and scarlet
--
Christi and scarlet
WY


Nancy C
 

Hi Christi

here is the link to your folder. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet

Not seeing the actual doc but still looking

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Christi,

You have a fold made

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet

but there's no case history in it.Click on the folder to open it then upload the case history.

To get you started:

D: DIAGNOSIS

We usually start with insulin, glucose, leptin sent to Cornell. If she's mid teens or older, or has any symptoms of Cushing's (PPID), add ACTH. I agree with assuming high insulin for now.

D: DIET

No grass. You can put her out for a few hours with a sealed muzzle. Soak your hay until it is tested and proven safe.It's not ideal but if you can't locate a hay probe (ask for state agricultural extension office) you can use pulled samples. Sample at least 20 bales per ton. The small amount of Standlee is probably OK or you can get Triple Crown Timothy Balance cubes. Triple Crown also has a stabilized flax. You can still use some CocoSoya for appeal, up to 4 oz/day. You can also finish up your CocoHoof but once the whole diet is in place you won't need that any more.

T: TRIM

If you can swing X-rays, laterals, that would be very helpful. See the Wiki for how to take hoof pictures and get them up ASAP. Do you have boots and pads?

E: EXERCISE

We agree with no forcing a horse to walk, especially when on pain medication, but the exception to this is horses that have been confined to a small area for a prolonged time and which obviously walk more freely once they start to  move. It won't hurt to walk the horse to a turnout area then let him decide how much to move around.

In cold weather we also recommend wrapping the legs (lined shipping boots are great and safe for tendons) and put a liner in your boots or put the hoof in a sock. Cold aggravates circulatory issues to the point of pain in many horses.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Barhaug@...
 

Im going to the extension agency today to get the forage probe. Trying to get those samples sent off today. 

I put a blanket on her yesterday, and am going to try the shipping boots today. Our weather has not been good. I cant put out shavings because she and the other mare shes with eat them. All.

im going to try putting pads on her feet today. She tolerates them. She has always been hard to work with: flightly, very difficult to catch. Im a little scared to leave things on her overnight. 

I got the triple crown natural timothy balance hay cubes yesterday. These have minerals, beet, sodium bicarbonate (aluminum?) in them. Did i get the right ones, or should i look for some different ones? Is it okay to soak them in boiling water? (Because of the beets) or a better question might be: whats the best way to soak them? 

I had already purchased the “simply flax” by manna pro. It says that they are good for twelve months, this batch was created in 7/2018. Scarlet and the older mare that shes out with really like it, and thats the only way that ive been getting them to take their minerals. I hope its okay to continue using simply flax, cause im out of money an get paid thursday. First thing i gotta buy are those hay analysis’. 

I quit using the standlee timothy pellets because their quality seems to be up and down and everywhere. Last bag i got smelled funny, so i took it back.....

I got pictures yesterday, and my mom is going to help me try to get them uploaded today. 

one of my main questions is: how do i soak the hay in freezing temps? 

My second main question is: the discomfort hasnt seemed to lessen much. She has only been in the corrall with her mentor mare. I havent turned her out since i noticed her a little sore, (2/14/19)  but then it just got worse. I dont think that its worse from the past few days, and last night when i went down at 9:00, i thought it was even better, but i went back at 2:30 this morning and it seemed worse again. Is there anything else i can do for her? I forgot to put on the case study that i had also given her some devils claw plus for a little while ( three days?) when i first noticed her sore....and i had her on that last (november?) and it seemed to really help her. Do you think it would be all right to give her that? 

Shes’s currently getting, and eating, with not a little persuasion,
equi base, 4 ounce split a.m./p.m.
glyco eq pellets 2 scoops split
1/4 liquid e
meditteranean sea salt 1 tsp when she’ll eat it.
about 1 ounce of the flax so far (she seems to like it better than even the coco soya) 

shes very grouchy normally: “dont touch me here or there and definitely dont barely brush up against me. Dont turn the manure fork over and scrape the ground with it if im standing by you, and dont brush my hair the wrong way or with a soft brush”) i think that we have so much calcium. I suspect that its interfering with her magnesium uptake, i dont know, though.  When i can im getting a water analysis, but i had it analysed for a water softener. The guy said heavy minerals, but couldnt tell me which ones...

I also  pulled a tick off of her last week. You dont think this could have been lymes related do you?

thank you for your help.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/case history/files/christi%20and%20scarlet. I wish i could figure out how to copy and paste that link.....  

christi and scarlet. 
-- 
Christi


Barhaug@...
 

*1/4 liquid e* actually 1/2  teaspoon liquid e split
--
Christi


 

Hi,Christi - you are doing a GREAT job of getting all your ducks in a row, and helping your mare!

I got the triple crown natural timothy balance hay cubes yesterday. These have minerals, beet, sodium bicarbonate (aluminum?) in them. Did i get the right ones, or should i look for some different ones? Is it okay to soak them in boiling water? (Because of the beets) or a better question might be: whats the best way to soak them?
You only need to get them wet enough to have the minerals and supplements stick to them. Just add a little water, give them a stir, and they will fluff up. Alternatively, make the minerals and supps into a thin paste, and stir that onto the cubes.
 
one of my main questions is: how do i soak the hay in freezing temps? 
Well, I just came in from dumping my soaking cans, so what perfect timing!  Some people put the hay in a cooler on wheels, soak, then roll the cooler out to where you want to dump the water (tough if there is snow). Here is a link to a message explaining how I soak in subzero temps:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/232156  "Right now, I put 3 or 4 flakes of hay into a hay net (no need to tie it up - I removed the string,) and fill it by putting it over a Home Hardware trash bag stand https://www.homehardware.ca/en/garbage-bag-holder-for-yard-waste/p/4435622   I put this into a garbage can: https://www.homehardware.ca/en/121l-black-garbage-can-with-wheels/p/4438648 ; weigh it down with a small bucket full of water (now ice); and fill it up (takes 6 minutes)  At -32 C, after one hour, you have a skim of ice on the top which is easily broken. I then push the garbage can over and let the water run out (you need an area where you don't care if there is brown ice). Pull the can off the hay net, drag the hay net over to where you want to store it. Remove net, and immediately fill it again for the next day (otherwise the net freezes). I actually do two black garbage cans daily for two days, then skip. (soaking for 2.5 horses) Since the hay stays frozen, there is no need to worry about it molding or going sour. A frozen flake of hay acts as its own slow feeder. " 
My second main question is: the discomfort hasnt seemed to lessen much. She has only been in the corrall with her mentor mare. I havent turned her out since i noticed her a little sore, (2/14/19)  but then it just got worse. I dont think that its worse from the past few days, and last night when i went down at 9:00, i thought it was even better, but i went back at 2:30 this morning and it seemed worse again. Is there anything else i can do for her? I forgot to put on the case study that i had also given her some devils claw plus for a little while ( three days?) when i first noticed her sore....and i had her on that last (november?) and it seemed to really help her. Do you think it would be all right to give her that? 
It has only been 12 or so days; give it a little time. See if things improve once you start soaking the hay. Giving some Devil's Claw for a few days as a trial is okay, but no more than a few days at a time (it can interfere with healing)
shes very grouchy normally: “dont touch me here or there and definitely dont barely brush up against me. Dont turn the manure fork over and scrape the ground with it if im standing by you, and dont brush my hair the wrong way or with a soft brush”) i think that we have so much calcium. I suspect that its interfering with her magnesium uptake, i dont know, though.
I suspect you could be correct! It may also have something to do with low total thyroid levels due to inflammation and IR (which is not the same as being hypothryoid - no need to give thryoid supplements. The way to approach that is diet).
 

I also  pulled a tick off of her last week. You dont think this could have been lymes related do you?
I am not sure of the Lyme status of WY - if Lyme is present there, then that could have an effect.  To diagnose, get the Lyme Multiplex from Cornell:  https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspx?Species=7&Test_Name=equine%20multiplex%20assay&TstTyp=&WebDisc=    It won't be $40; more likely $80 plus the vet call, blood collection, and courier.
thank you for your help.
You  are more than welcome!


https://ecir.groups.io/g/case history/files/christi%20and%20scarlet. I wish i could figure out how to copy and paste that link.....  
Ha! I rudely put it into your automatic signature, and I *think* it will work. Hope that's okay!  To make links "clickable", make sure to add a space after the link.

Cheers,
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Barhaug@...
 

Jaini, 

thank you. Your encouraging words right at the start made me start crying in a good way. Thank you so much. 

Thank you for the info on soaking hay. You is a cowgirl cause you really cowgirl up with that one!

She seems better today. I put a blanket on her. I put safe t links on the surcingles. I got a pad on one foot, and ran out of vet wrap. I forgot it yesterday. but after that, she was walking fairly normally. It warmed up here a little too with the snow. 

Im assuming that the minerals in the triple crown timothy natural balance cubes will not interfere with the minerals in the uckele equi base or glycocemic eq. Would i be correct to assume that? And, is it okay to put the flax on top of all of that (cubes and minerals)? She really likes the flax. And how much flax of the 3to 6 ounces do you think i could feed her? Would the flax help her start feeling better, too? Cause she seems to be.

Thank you. 
--
Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet


 

Hi, Christi -  Shoot - I meant to address the Timothy Balance Hay cubes; yes, they are balanced to themselves (so to speak),and so won't interfere with any other mineral balancing.  Yes, just toss the flax on top. I am glad she likes it - yay!  You can use 3/4 cups (= 3 ounces) to 1 1/2 cups (= 6 ounces). Flax is benign with regards to sugar and starch, but if you feed more than half a pound or so, the fat might be an issue. 

One helpful thing I have found is to keep a journal of really objective measurements, such as: how many times in 3 minutes does she shift her weight? How long does it take her to walk from wherever she is to get her feed when you put it out? It is tough to document how long she spends lying down, because that requires checking on her a zillion times throughout the day, but you can just note if she is down or up when you go out. 

One day at a time! I bet she likes her blanket, and I am sure she appreciates the warmer temps.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Barhaug@...
 

Thank you Jaini! 

Our internet has been down for a couple of days.☹️   

It got cold again and scarlet was acting really sore again. Then it warmed up yesterday and today, she seemed better again. Today wasnt as bad as the night before last, but still not a drastic improvement like i really want to see. She won’t eat the devils claw plus, so i just quit that.  Thanks for the advice on the daily journal, that’s a good idea.

i finally got the forage probe from the county extension agent and got samples pulled today. Am planning on sending them to dairy one tomorrow. 

I got some hay soaked today, but not all. I have a few questions about that. I was just starting to figure a few things out on this site when our internet went down, so i havent gotten a chance to look at your message on soaking. Ill try to look at that. 

my main concern is that i just can’t get her to eat the glycocemic eq. With the flax i can work with her and get her to eat most of it, but no more than 3/4 of the dose. If that. She won’t eat the timothy natural balance hay cubes because they have beets in them. I went back to the standlee timothy hay pellets. She doesn’t like anything that has beets or stevia. She eats her equi base just fine - licks the bucket. Any suggestions? 

I have a sample of quiessence (five days worth). I have some mag oxide powder 58% from uckele, and some chromium i got from a vet about five years ago (dont know if its still good). I can order seperate ingredients that are in the glyco eq from uckele, but it takes a while for me to get anything from michigan, for some reason. I got her to eat about 3/4 of a scoop of glyco eq this a.m. but it was difficult. The mag oxide has a warning label on it: “may cause respiratory irritation, use safe handling equipment” whatever safe handling equipment is....

thank you so much for all of your help! 




Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet
--
Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet


LJ Friedman
 

Mediterranean sea salt sounds wonderful and fancy.  Best to use iodized table salt with 1 oz goal for a regular size horse,  more salt if more sweating. 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014  San Diego, CA

Jesse's Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Barhaug@...
 

Thank you, LJ i was thinking that maybe I was actually doing them a diservice by not giving them iodized salt. Here are a few questions i had about salt:
1. i’m also giving my horses Uckele’s Equi Base which has kelp in it, so, should i still give them the iodized salt with that? 
2. A miracle happened and Scarlet started eating her equi base and glyco eq in timothy hay pellets but She won’t eat the equi base or glyco eq eith any salt. Is there another way for her to get the iodized salt? 
3. Ive been soaking scarlets hay with hot water out of our house tap, but a water softener is is hooked to the hot water that uses salt to get excess minerals out of the water. So, im not sure how much salt that she’s getting with the soaked hay. So, should i find a different kind of water to soak the hay in or will the hot water softener water be okay. 

Im not sure if i should start a new post or stay on this thread since these are all questions about Scarlet, just different questions. 

Thank you everyone for your help. 
--
Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Christi,

The Equi-Base already has sodium and iodine (which is why you would be adding iodized salt to her diet) in it so you don't need to add more to Scarlet's diet.

Not a problem if there happens to be salt in the water you are soaking the hay in - if there is more in her diet than she needs, she'll just pee it out.

Good job, you. 

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Barhaug@...
 

Great! Thank you very much Lavinia!
--
Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet


Barhaug@...
 

so, now Scarlet's not eating her glycocemic eq again.  She ate it for two days. Yesterday, i was seeing marked improvement in that she was definitely moving more than she has been, even though it was still cold. Then, yesterday a.m., she just decided she didn't want it anymore. should i start her on just the Uckele mag oxide? i have some old chromium yeast from Platinum too (BB 2016). or should i try the quiessence? does anyone know anything about quiessence? i will call Gwenn and order separate glyco eq ingredients (without the stevia) today, but it takes me two weeks to get anything from Michigan. especially with this weather.  she eats the equi base just fine. she even ate animed remission just fine, it just didn't seem to help, and seemed like it made her back legs swell, for some reason. 

hay samples have been sent to Dairy One, but i felt it needful to test for selenium, being Wyoming, so it make take at least a week to get those back.....

i took pictures, but my mom said they won't work, so i'll try to get some more of those today. 

thank you all. 
--
Christi and Scarlet
WY Feb 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/christi%20and%20scarlet