My June 7th post....Hi... I just finished re-reading the Deworming Guidelines in the Files and was hoping to ask if you would still recommend 3 doses of Ivermectin 3 weeks apart if my horse's and donkey's fecal test results came back clear from the vet's office just recently, as well as the last time they were done in 2018.  They are on a dry track in a closed herd, and manure is picked up daily.

Sorry... I think I am confusing myself when reading the excerpt style of the guidelines in the Files.

I want to make sure that I am not overdoing it, but still covering my bases, for the parasites that may not be showing up their fecal tests.  I am also suspect of pin worms due to Tabby's tail scratching after trying Dr. Kellon's recommendation of Mint and Thymol in vaseline to see her continue to rub her tail.  I have also noticed more recently that her rump is no longer round when viewed from behind, as her spine sticks up to form more a a V shape from that view.  ACTH was 13.1 on a Cornell ACTH Baseline ACTH Test taken on March 19th.  I wanted to make sure that worm load is not contributing to this issue.

Please let me know if you would prefer I post this on Horsekeeping instead.  Thank you,
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 

Hi Sally

Since they are both metabolic (right?), you should be posting here.  Sorry for the delay. Just want to make sure you saw this on pinworms

https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2019/05/25/how-to-get-rid-of-pinworms/

Since she made the first recommendation (right?) I need Dr Kellon to give the rest of your answers.  I'm not clear if she made the three doses three weeks apart and you have finished or asking if you should or should not go ahead based on fecals.

If you've not started this regimin when were they last dewormed? Not seeing that in CH.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 

Hi Nancy... both Tabby and Maisie the Donkey are PPID and IR.  

I did see Dr. Kellon's article on Pinworms, which is why I recently tried the Mint and Thymol in Vaseline in case Tabby's current tail scratching was caused by Culicoids, which I do know are in our environment.

Dr. Kellon did not give me the direction directly on treating with 3 doses of Ivermectin 3 weeks apart.  I read this protocol in the ECIR Files under "DeWorming Guidelines".  I was hoping to find out if this particular protocol (3 doses/3 wks apart) was still needed by my two equines given that they had regularly tested negative on their fecal exams in 2017, 2018, and 2019 and have been living in a closed herd, on a dry track, and manure picked up daily since October of 2014.

In June of 2018 they received a dose of Safe-guard/Fenbendazole.  In July of 2016 they received one dose of Ivermectin.  In January of 2016 they had a 30 day course of Daily Strongid C2X.

Now that I understand that you all want to see it, I will update my Case History with this information when I can catch my breath...  I am keeping watch on my 96 year old aunt who insists on living by herself at home and has no other family in state.

Hope this information will help you to answer my questions.

Thanks very much!
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 

P.S.  Sorry... I should have given you one of the main reasons I asked this question.... Because of the emerging resistance to de-wormers, I did not want to over do it with multiple Ivermectin doses if not needed in my equine's situation.

Thanks again, Sally
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 

Hi Sally,

First, what is the protocol for collecting the manure samples, transporting them and when and where they are actually tested? What time of year were they tested?

No free living horse is parasite free, although a healthy adult may well have no eggs found on a fecal exam.

The 3 treatments 3 weeks apart using ivermectin is specifically for encysted small Strongyles.

Muscle loss in the hindquarters is not a sign of parasitism. Parasitism causes generalized weight loss. Muscle loss over the rump/topline may be due to age, reduced activity, PPID and less likely a protein or essential amino acid deficiency.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

P.S.   The major cause of resistance is underdosing. The same is true for antibiotic resistance.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Thank you Dr. Kellon.  Good to have a better understanding of how resistance is created.

To answer your questions:  On 4/30/19, and 4/?/ 2016, I collected a newly dropped sample of manure that was not touching the ground, put it in a baggie in my refer, and same day gave it to my Vet to take back to the clinic (in the refrigerated area of their truck bed) for McMaster testing.   In March of 2017 and April of 2018, I sent a sample to Horsemen's Lab, but did not do that again after reading here that the samples need to be kept refrigerated to produce reliable results.  

Tabby has also lost weight overall, but I have been attributing that to my current load of Timothy Hay from Nevada, that I talked about here previously, that has been producing their very dry manure.  And, depending on the content in a partiuclar  bale, they both leave a good portion uneaten that consists of small shreds and some kind of round seed head (from a weed I am guessing).  It has been difficult monitoring their intake since I never know how much they will eat of what I weigh out.  Trading it out for another load of hay would require a lot of cost in Lab Testing, Balancing, and Custom Supplements (both new and throwing away unused). But perhaps I should also be looking harder at worms as a major contributing cause for topline and overall weight loss..

Probably more than you want or need to know, but since my Nephew's suicide last summer, I have been feeling depressed and not up for working with Tabby to get her back in to a riding routine again. So reduced activity is definitely a factor here.  Unfortunately, she is not one of those calm horses that can sit for weeks or months and then be able to have a quiet ride when you jump back on them.  Getting her back to safe riding is a bit of a process on the ground and in the arena.  It will happen tho.. I am determined!

On the Only Donkeys Facebook page there was a conversation about de-worming, and someone posted that Donkeys should not be given multiple, sequential doses of Ivermectin as it could cause adverse reactions  I have no way of knowing that persons qualifications to make that statement.  Tried to find it again, but you can't do a search on Facebook for mention of Ivermectin among the comments, only on the original post.

Best,
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 

Sally...since I have been inquiring about worming protocols as well, and am more than likely to just go with what has worked in the past rather than researching a ton of articles and posts, I just want to offer my sincere sympathies to you in the loss of your nephew. My family has known a lot of sorrow as well, and I know that the life I have now is not the life I envisioned when I brought my horse home. Mental illness and anguish is very difficult, and I just needed to say, you are not alone. Sometimes researching tons of articles and files is just too much, and the people here are trying their best, but I am sure it is hard to keep answering the same questions. I'll probably do Equimax or Zimectrin Gold as they kill the most worms and my horse really shouldn't have any...but....
--
Deb and Scotty I/R Probably PPID
Northwest Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Deb and Sally

Another option to doing the hard work of reading archives is Dr Kellon’s short course on deworming. At $50 and with the ability to stay in the course virtually forever, it is worth the cost, times ten. 

Our horses have special needs for deworming. There are many areas of horse management that we must reassess to be the best advocate for those in our care. Understanding  what they are and what needs to change, will help save potential vet costs in the future. This is true whether you “read and research” for yourself, or enroll in Dr Kellon’s course. 

You can can find the course at drkellon.com. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT