Seasonal Rise Question Based On New ACTH, Insulin And Leptin Blood Work


Lynn
 

My vet called today. He consulted with the endocrinologist about Relevante's elevated leptin and insulin. The endocrinologist agreed with what was said here on the forum regarding onset of exercise program and the seasonal rise being variables that could be affecting the numbers. He also discussed "breed" stating that he was happy with the numbers considering Relevante is a Paso Fino and to just continue with the current protocol.
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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lynn
 

Thanks Lavinia! I did not realize that starting exercise can elevate leptin. Good to know. I was thinking the higher insulin number might likely be due to the rise. He has a trim this Friday - we moved to a 3-week trim to stay on top of things...just going to follow the blueprint you provided with the consult. I'm actually going to take photos of his feet, print them off and try to do my own mark-ups...LOL...oh boy.
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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Also keep in mind that leptin values will elevate when you start an exercise program (or increase the intensity) and that takes a bit of time to settle down again.

Insulin does fluctuate all the time and your previous result was in April whereas the new one is in Aug. All horses become more insulin resistant as part of the seasonal rise so a small increase isn't unexpected now. If he is doing well, no other signs that there's anything wrong, then just keep things tight and keep doing what you're doing cuz it's obviously working.

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Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Tanna
 

Thank you Sherry,

I would like to say we have confirmed control but my results are actually in pmol/L and so based on the timing of our second test in April at 0.5 mg, 23 hours post dosage, we were only assuming that once I had tirated up she would be REALLY well controlled on 1 mg.

2019 03 19 Idexx (Guelph)
45.8  pmol/L  2-10  (208.18 pg/mL)

2019 04 17    Idexx (Guelph/Cornell)
10.41 pmol/L  2-10  (47.3 pg/mL)
 
Prascend 0.5      2019 04 02
Prascend 0.75     2019 04 19
Prascend 1.00.    2019 04 27
Prascend 0.5      2019 07 18
Prascend 0.75.     2019 07 29
 
With the drop to 0.5 she presented with a cough and a bit of head tossy tick that may or may not be related to dosage. I bumped back up to 0.75 based on BI's suggestions for addressing dose intolerance and have stayed here too scared to go higher.

Thank you

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Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Lynn
 

Thanks Sherry. That was my thinking as well. We literally just began the "conditioning" riding so I'm encouraged by the way that he is acting that we'll be able to continue this and that it will have a positive impact on those numbers. Really appreciate the input.
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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

For me since he's still showing as compensated in the calculator and the numbers aren't off the charts for insulin or leptin I'd just keep managing him as you are.  As we always say exercise is the best insulin buster there is so having his ACTH under control and keeping him in some sort of work should help keep the insulin under control.



Lynn
 

Hi Sherry,

Thanks. So you feel even though his insulin/leptin are slightly elevated over last year that it's okay to hold our current course. I am going to re-test at the end of September and of course I'm watching him for manifestation of any physical symptoms but so far there's nothing.
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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Sherry Morse
 
Edited

Tanna,
 
If I'm reading your CH correctly Tula was showing as well controlled on .5mg and then you bumped her dosage up.  Were she mine I'd keep her on the .5mg (or .75mg if she's tolerating that) unless there's an indication (via bloodwork or visual cues) that she needed an increase.  
 

 


Sherry Morse
 

Lynn,

With his ACTH in the teens in July I wouldn't change anything at this point.  Given that he had a negative reaction when you increased his pergolide last year IF you notice any similar changes this year I would err on the side of having bloodwork done and then changing his dose if indicated by the results.


Tanna
 

Bumping. Following. 

I feel as though I am in a similar boat with my mare but substituting the extreme spookiness for dose intolerance/adverse reactions; musculoskeletal pain, colic, lethargy, mild ataxia and depression. I too had to reduce dose before seeing significant improvement in symptoms and all signs say she is currently feeling great. We have no clinical signs of PPID or IR with a trim being done tomorrow to get our toes tight. 

I was able to add back 0.25 of the 0.5 I reduced but I am scared to increase to the 1 mg @ which she showed problems. I was originally planning to test this week or next, but after dealing with the cost of colic and epm blood tests (trying to rule out other causes of neurological signs) I am also leaning toward testing at the end of September to see where her ACTH and Insulin would be at the height of the rise. I am not sure if this is your idea with September as well?

One of the biggest things for me in staying the current course is being able to work regularly whereas before we could not. I think this is better for her health in general but I am feeling nervous about standing pat because I feel as though I shouldn't be. :o|

Hope some of the pros can weigh in on your question. 

--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Lynn
 

12:34pm   

We navigated the seasonal rise last year [2018] for the first time since Relevante's diagnosis. He was on 2 mg of compounded pergolide which I raised to 2.5 mg to be proactive in terms of staying ahead of the seasonal rise. I then raised it to 3 mg because he still had a slight pot belly and loss of topline. The pot belly and loss of topline didn't change but he did - cuckoo for coco puffs. There were a couple long strings detailing this 12/06/18   
I tried all the suggestions and last thing i tried is highlighted here in an excerpt from Dr. K:

Dec 7   

 

"Yes, I remember we were thinking the abdomen was weakness related to PPID.  There are basically two possibilities. He didn’t respond because the dose is too low, or because it’s not PPID related. The spookiness also may be pergolide related or may not.  I would suggest trying him on the thiamine for a week or two and if that doesn’t obviously change the spooking then try reducing pergolide to 2 mg."

The thiamine didn’t bring about any noticeable change so I gradually brought him down from 3 mg to 2 mg of compounded pergolide.  My boy became himself again [ I don't mean a dead head, he's bright and full of vim and vigor just not "crazy" acting] and he has remained on 2 mg compounded pergolide. 

As a result of what happened last year, I approached the seasonal rise differently this year. We have worked very hard on trim/diet/supplements etc. and Lavinia said there is no reason I can’t ride him for conditioning. I had him examined by an equine chiropractor who said he is doing great. She made one small adjustment to his right pelvis. I also had her do a saddle fit check and she said I have the perfect saddle to accommodate his changing topline. He has Cavallo Trek boots that fit great and he is now used to them. I have also continued to test him.

ACTH in July 2019 was 18.9 pg/mL – the lowest it has ever been

Insulin and Leptin values taken August 2019 were slightly elevated when compared to last year but the IR calculator still shows him as compensated IR

 April 2018

Insulin – 11.52 ulU/mL

Leptin – 12.47 ng/mL

 

August 2019

Insulin – 18.01 ulU/mL

Leptin – 13.54 ng/mL

Finally, to my question, I do not want to raise his Pergolide dose unless I absolutely have to due to the long bout of scary spookiness he went through and sustained until his dose was lowered. However I want to make the right decision here…is the course of action I’m taking appropriate?

I rode him this Saturday. He is feeling great. I took him into the arena to do a little ground work prior to going on some trails right on the farm. He was prancing. When I tied his reins up and let him off his lead he took off and bucked all the way around the arena – came back to me and nuzzled then took off bucking again boots, saddle and all. When we left the arena it was a windy day. He had a couple normal spooks considering it’s only our 2nd time on the trails in almost a year but did great. He was bright, we went down to the creek, walked up and down in the water. I had to hold him back to do the 15 minute warm up but when I let him out he was something to behold. Really strutting his stuff.

 His case history is current. I posted a side view body shot of him [August 2018] in his album and there are post trim photos of his feet there as well.  Blood work files are complete. I plan to retest his ACTH at the end of September. My vet says he is going to talk to the endocrinologist he’s been consulting with at Cornell tomorrow about the elevated insulin and leptin.  I don’t want to under dose Relevante and jeopardize his health but I also don’t want to “fix” what isn’t broken so wanted to ask the question here on the forum as well.

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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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