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Mare with severe founder and blood test shows Cuchings
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I have been reading these threads for a while not knowing the results of my mares blood work. She was diagnosed with severe founder about ten days ago which had progressed quickly from three weeks before when xrays showed barely any rotation. So corrective shoeing with new farrier and taking heels down and shortening toe then clogs helped her be comfortable without pain meds while awaiting blood tests.
Blood tests came back yesterday with sever numbers indicating Cushings. Vet consulted with all his partners and they say I should put her down. She is 16. Farrier disagrees and I am confused at why they are in such complete disagreement. I would think that the vet office with the consensus of all the vets with 30 years experience would know more than the carrier but I know you all seem to manage this condition. Although I do not think I can go t the extremes that I see here as my life is already demanding with mom in nursing home and grad kids and work and I had hoped my horse time could be riding but here we are! The other terribly confusing thing is Hay! In my studies grass hay has more sugar than alfalfa. I’ve always fed an 80/20 mix. Now I don’t know what to order! I have a source for pure Timothy or 80/20 mix again. Tried testing locally at the extension and they don’t test for sugar and starch and I can’t test hay ordered from two hours away anyway. So grass or mix? Alfalfa has more protein and less sugar than Timothy I thought. Right now I’m soaking. It’s all a lot as you know! I could use some suggestions. -- Beth Haggett, Ph.D. Mind-Body Medicine Lucia's owner |
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Hi Beth
I'm running out the door so I will cut to the chase. I am not the least bit surprised at the response you have gotten. It is not at all uncommon. Vets are often ready to put down the horse because they do not have the experience to show the owner what it takes to to rehab the horse, specifically in the area of diet and trim. Often they recommend this because in their experience owners are not willing to do the work and honestly it could be the kindest thing for the horse. Anyone who wants to do this work needs to come to grips with what as the owner they are willing to do. The owner or primary caregiver is the keystone to build on all that will happen to save her. If you can't do the work, there is no shame in that. The shame is in not recognizing that this is beyond ability and letting the horse suffer. Alternatives to euthanasia include finding a new home to rehab her. If we knew where you are located we might be able to help you better. That is why we ask for location in your signature. May I pretty please ask you to fix that in your auto-sig? Setting up your case history will be critical to rehabbing her. The only way to know about your hay is to test it. We can help you figure that out too. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2019-2020 Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Beth, As noted in the original welcome letter Lavinia sent you last week (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/239376) we really need a case history done to be able to give you any specific recommendations for your mare, but neither laminitis nor Cushings is a death sentence. If your vet disagrees, frankly I'd find a new vet. As far as hay - unless your hay is tested to be lower than 10% ESC + starch it needs to be soaked before being fed. We recommend NO alfalfa because it will literally blow the feet off some horses, because the starch will not soak out (again, this is in the welcome letter you were sent upon joining). If your hay supplier doesn't test their hay and you can't find another source that either has tested hay or is close enough to test you may be better off using cubes or compressed hay bales from your feed store which have a guaranteed analysis until you can get that sorted out. If you could add your location to your signature that would be helpful as some of our other members may have suggestions for you if we know where you are. Thanks, PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet/Scutch%20Case%20History.pdf |
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Hi Beth, from what I've learned here it seems that Timothy hay is often lower in sugar (ESC) like alfalfa hay, but the Timothy hay will also be lower in starch than alfalfa hay. BOTH sugar and starch need to be low. So if you can't test and you have a choice, the Timothy hay is likely to be lower in starch and it can be soaked to reduce the ESC (sugar) content by up to 30%. Starch has 2x the effect of ESC so it can be really problematic, plus it doesn't soak out like ESC does, so lower starch can be more important than lower ESC. That's why grass hay is recommended. Most grass hay has adequate protein for horses, and if it's a little on the low side then most mineral supplements will have some added proteins (the ones that tend to be low or limiting) or you can add a specific protein supplement to boost it. Alfalfa is for dairy cows IMO.
As you will see if you remain in this group, thousands of people have horses with Cushings. It is not a death sentence. But there are care and financial obligations that go along with keeping them healthy that not everyone can manage. If you could find tested safe hay, eliminating the soaking step will help a lot in terms of time. -- Kirsten Rasmussen Kitimat, BC, Canada January 2019 Shaku's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kirsten%20and%20Shaku Shaku's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82559&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 |
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Thank you both so much. I wonder if I missed the welcome letter? There have been so many threads going across my email and I never saw anything replying to me except to set up my signature which I did. I just added my location to it. Thank you for giving me some definitive information on the hay. I went to have it tested and they told me they test for nutrients only and not starch and sugar so maybe I need to send it somewhere instead. Is Timothy a good grass hay to get? I guess it depends on the cutting and the moisture and all of that. I will try to upload my X-rays and my blood work to the link. It is all super overwhelming to figure out and I actually have a PhD. I really admire how much you are all willing to do for your horses. And my vet seems like he has a big heart and is trying to save me a lot of suffering and cost with his 30 years of experience. He does say if I really want to save her he will support and help me but her best bet is to do surgery and vascular study etc. etc. Which I’m not willing to do. Thrive On, Beth Beth Haggett, MSW, LCSW, PhD, NB-HWC Master Personal & Executive Coach National Board Certified Health & Wellness Coach 801-580-3429 On August 27, 2019 at 7:40:15 AM, Sherry Morse via Groups.Io (sherry_morse@...) wrote:
-- Beth Haggett, Ph.D. Mind-Body Medicine Lucia's owner Ogden, Utah |
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KIRSTEN, Thank you so much for your explanation! I found what seems like a great source for Timothy all grass hay but he lives almost three hours away from me and delivers a minimum of 100 bales. I am tempted to just order what i’ll need for the year before I miss out on hay altogether but I cannot test his hay until I actually buy it and he hasn’t tested it. He says it is all Timothy and sent me videos of it and it looks beautiful and is weed and mold free. I figure maybe I can buy it and then test it and if it is still high starch I can soak it and maybe at least it is better than my 80/20 mix??? Does this make sense to you? It doesn’t help me to test what I have as I’m almost out anyway and will need to buy more. Can’t find any closer that sounds like good hay that I can test ahead of time and need to get some ordered for my mare if she makes it and my other horse too for the year. Does this make sense? Thrive On, Beth Beth Haggett, MSW, LCSW, PhD, NB-HWC Master Personal & Executive Coach National Board Certified Health & Wellness Coach 801-580-3429 On August 27, 2019 at 8:16:49 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen (kirstenrasmussen3@...) wrote:
-- Beth Haggett, Ph.D. Mind-Body Medicine Lucia's owner Ogden, Utah |
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Hi Beth
You can't know anything for sure unless you test it. The timothy could be higher in sugar and starch than your 80/20 or vice versa. We know FOR SURE that we do not recommend alfalfa to an IR horse especially with laminitis, so timothy is your better option. Here's an article as to what we know about alfalfa. https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/alfalfa-and-the-ir-horse/ Here's how one member figured out how to get the hay tested in another state. If your guy will pull it and wait while you test it, this might work for you. There are other good ideas in this post as well. Excellent post from ECIR Group Member Monique on ECHorsekeepinghttps://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/message/10707 ****** I'm not good at keeping things short but I will try. Where there's a will , there's a way. Like Dr. Kellon says "a situation is only hopeless when you have given up hope". Probably my favorite quote of all time !No one is going to knock on your door with a tested load of hay and analysis to see if you want to buy it. If you CHOOSE to only buy tested acceptable hay YOU have that choice. Some options are : Ask your local farmer/ hay broker / feed store or someone that privately sells just hay to let you test hay and have them set it aside until you get the results (1 week tops).Call the closest co-op office of growers and make some contacts.Look for ads anywhere you can and call people, newspapers, internet etc.Post on this list to ask for contacts. Band together w/ others in your area to buy a tractor trailer load and split it. This year in my search of hay I contacted the co-op office in Eureka Nevada (10 hrs. away ,I live in San Diego) and they don't even have a computer ! I sent the president an EA form, check attached for test, a quart size ziploc and a postage paid envelop to NY. He cored the equivalent of a tractor trailer load (8 squeezes) and sent it off. W/in 2 weeks of mailing him the packet I had results. We have purchased that hay and it's coming next week !I had some extra and have already sold it for a small profit. Split the rest w/ 4 other determined Ramona ladies. I also went on Craigs List and looked up hay for sale. Any kind of hay. I called a guy about some Teff hay and told him I would only be interested in purchasing some if I could see a test of what he currently had. I specified a trainer package w/ nitrates and sulfur added. W/in 3 weeks I had an analysis in my e-mail and the test was his expense ! He ended up to be a great lead for next year. That hay was grown in Imperial Valley but was so nice. The test was .20 sulfur and around 8 NSC. Can't remember the nitrates but low.I have already referred 4 people to him so it will still pay off ! Before I knew it I had multiple irons in the fire and loads of test results in my e-mail to purchase if I chose to do so.Just so happens that the ONLY hay test we paid for was the best (that was my gut feeling all along !) If you can't store hay , you can. Purchase some pallets and tarp REALLY well.I use these huge spikes like nails so when I do the initial wrap of tarp around the outside of my hay I secure the tarp with the nails through the holes in the tarp into the hay. Then put an old tire in the center on top of stack so your final tarp that goes over the top is domed. Don't feed out of that stack so hay is not spilled by it or have to mess w/ the tarps. Keep a smaller supply under cover and pull from the larger stack to fill the smaller undercover stuff. Purchase a cheap car trailer. A squeeze can actually load directly on it w/out picking up a set of hooks ! You could drive to the grower and buy your hay cheaper if you don't want to buy an entire load. Keep the trailer for hay only. You can store the hay on the trailer and it will be well off of the ground. Once again, don't feed out of it. Pull 10 or more bales at a time to feed from. Don't park your car in the garage. Park hay there instead. Don't settle for less or feel like you have to feed hay that is not acceptable.You don't have to, it's your choice !Irons are always available to put in the fire, you just have to find them ! Monique San Diego 2007 ************************************* Good luck! -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2019-2020 Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA |
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gypsylassie
Hi Beth, not Kirsten, but if I were in your position, I would buy that Timothy.
Our hay year here in N Illinois has been terrible and I have bought some grass hay without testing because if I didn't it would get sold. In the past, I've had farmers hold it till I could get it tested, but this year everyone is scrambling for decent hay that hasn't molded, so farmers are selling quick. So far what I've tested is ok for s/s. If the Timothy ends up too high in s/s, you can soak it, or if better hay comes along, you could keep the Timothy as a back up, or sell it. Laura Chappie & Beau over the bridge 2011 N IL |
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It's your decision Beth, but as Laura said you could always sell the Timothy if it tests too high, especially if otherwise it is nice hay.
-- Kirsten Rasmussen Kitimat, BC, Canada January 2019 Shaku's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kirsten%20and%20Shaku Shaku's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82559&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 |
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Deb Walker
Beth - I just want to chime in here, as I too found acquainting myself with all of the knowledge and information available here difficult. The case history took me days to do, as did learning the proper etiquette for posting pics, etc. It's a lot to take in when you are worried sick about your horse. But, your vet's suggestion to put down such a young horse without first trying the things that work appalls me. But I will 100% agree with the vet that it is a huge undertaking, it is going to probably be expensive (more so than you can imagine) and a lot of frustration and crying yourself to sleep at night. In the end, only you can decide if your relationship with your horse is worth it.
When Scotty had only 1 ml RF sole and 7 ml LF sole and could barely hobble, 35+ years old, he still had that sparkle in his eye and he still was eating well, expressing affection, etc. I was beyond shocked to discover the severity of his situation, and the friend who trailered us the 60+ miles to a University Vet Hospital advised me to put him down...he is old, we were going into winter, and there were no guarantees anything would save him. After a full team of vets and farriers consulted, it was decided to leave him overnight and do a venogram the next day; this is probably what your vet was suggesting. This determines if there is blood flow. If there is not sufficient blood flow, your horse cannot grow a hoof. If there is, they can grow hoof. Because of the farrier schedule at the hospital, he had temporary devices put on his front feet as he had to stay Friday-Sunday until the farriers returned on Monday if the venogram was successful. Long story short, he had sufficient blood flow, the farriers put on a product called Ultimates which is wrapped extensively with an almost cast like material to stay on the foot. http://www.nanric.com/catalog/all-products/nanric-ultimate-pair (Scotty's were black, but this is what I am talking about.) It wasn't easy, he wasn't sound, he laid down a LOT, BUT in 8 weeks he grew 17 ml of sole!! Life since then has not been the same. It's hard. Some days you wonder if you are crazy. You don't add up the money you are spending because it would be devastating. Scotty went back to the same hospital last year for a check ligament surgery, and has also gone back a few more times for different trimming options. But he is alive, he's well, and I've finally hit the jackpot with a farrier who I believe can rehab him the rest of the way, and for whatever days this 35++ year old horse has left, I will do my best to keep him happy and healthy. All this to say, you could easily have another 20 years with your horse. -- Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619 |
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I just love your story and want to say what a wonderful thing it is that you've taken such good care of him and that he's still doing so remarkably well. I'm so glad you'll have some real help with this new farrier. You deserve it, and so does Scotty, for sure. What a great team y'all are.
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Deb Walker
Bless you Martha and thank you. I know I have travelled a very long way that I never thought I would have to go. But you are right...I think we have the best hope ever for a good result and going forward from here. Appreciate the encouragement and input.
-- Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619 |
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