Date
1 - 20 of 23
How Can I Balance the Need to Lose Weight with the Need to Graze?
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Julie, I was thinking those Portagrazers would work really well...WITH a hay net in them! I'm tempted to try one too. Go for it, and let me know how well it works! I like Nag Bag nets, they are soft, indestructible, and come in a range of hole sizes right down to mini, which is what my guy needs to actually slow him down (he has high leptin and he just can't help himself). Lol!
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) Kitimat, BC, Canada January 2019 Shaku's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kirsten%20and%20Shaku Shaku's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82559&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
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LOL - you hit the nail on the head, Bonnie....it's difficult for ME to restrict them. Now I feel like I've been killing them with "kindness" (before I found this group) and need to reverse, but it's hard. Thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one that feels this way! I'll bite the bullet and get couple 1" hay nets; maybe I can find a way to secure them in the PortaGrazer buckets (without the insert) so the PGs aren't a total loss.
-- - Julie Thomas September 2018, Seabeck, WA Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky . Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042 . Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044 .
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Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
Sandy
I tie my hay nets and various places in the pasture to tires so they’re eating off the ground and they can’t push it around and have it end up on the other side of the fence. I use double ended clips to tie them securely and the horses never get their mouths pinched. -- Pat and Savannah Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada January 2018 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0
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Julie,
I am lucky (in a weird way) that I had just retired when my horse had his first laminitis episode. I got help from another member who sent me to this group. Once I learned to test hays and create a safe diet for my guy I found it difficult FOR ME to restrict his diet. I hated reducing his hay intake. I felt miserable and guilty. OK, I found 1" hole hay nets, but he learned to empty them incredibly quickly. Then I bit the bullet and doubled the hay nets. That slowed down his hay eating. THEN, I found mini-hay nets. These are dinky little hay nets and I could put a little bit of hay in each net and I tied them in numerous places around my horses dry lot areas. Tough-1 makes a small, low cost Mini Hay bag. I also learned that hay nets can be placed down low, just about ground level as long as the draw string is secured well. -- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016 ECIR Primary Response White Cloud, Michigan, USA
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Careful with carabiners. I used to use them too, but I have seen several pics now online of horses w/ carabiner piercings in their lips/cheeks/faces. I do think there are ones that screw closed which would probably be safer. -- Joy and Willie (aka FLS Boxcar Willie) Nevada County, CA - 2019
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jmc
Hay pillows are awesome but can't use them with shod horses.
As for nibblenets and other web slow feeders (like Smartpak's) I secure the bottoms fairly tight so my three (one horse, two mini mules) can't knock them around too much. I use carabiners so I can unhook them easier for filling. -- Jodi June 2018 NW Wyoming Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386
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I use Hay Pillow. They are designed to lie on the floor but I believe they can be hung too…I haven’t tried. They are also sturdy and come in various net sizes. -- Thanks, Kandice and TWH Mare Bunny North Central TX joined 2/19 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandice%20and%20Bunny
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ferne fedeli
Do you use the bottom straps on the Nibble Nets? I have a donkey that would love to flip the hay nets around, but can't get the one with the bottom strap to move... I hang mine on a fence post--I have non-climb horse wire and split wood post fencing.
-- Ferne Fedeli 2007 No. California Regional Members Database Coordinator - see who is near you Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.
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I read recently (and I'll be darned if I can't find the article again...) there is a concern now about what happens to the horse's back as they stand in an un-natural position to eat from a wall, rather than the floor. I can see the dip in my horses' backs as they pull the hay out of the bag or net and it does make sense. My minis can get quite violent, ripping and ripping at the net to get something to eat so I always put a handful or two on the floor to take care of the big hungries at the beginning of a feeding. March 2017, Onalaska, WA, USA Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Andy .
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You might try using screw eyes and extra snaps to tightly secure the sides and bottom of your nets so that they won't move. If they can't toss them they'll probably give up trying.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Michele Einarson
after many iterations, I now use a NibbleNet inside a huge feed tub: https://www.thinaircanvas.com/nibblenet/picturesframe.htm
http://www.tufftubs.com/htdocs/plinoval.htm I attach the net to the tub with snaps and rope loops because my guy wants to throw everything out of the tub: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-9-16-in-Stainless-Steel-Rope-Loop-42634/205887675?MERCH=REC-_-pipsem-_-203810635-_-205887675-_-N I prefer feeding with the head down to allow nasal passages to clear and avoid poll issues that might arise from eating with his head cocked to the side. Michele & Mosey, 2019 Reno, NV, USA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Michele%20and%20Mosey https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88791
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From my experience, the type of feeder that works well will depend to some extent upon the horse. For years, I have fed my six horses in Nibblenets at shoulder level and felt that everything was OK. Then I had a couple of Welsh Cobs who were vigorous eaters! They liked to flip and bang the hay nets to get the hay to drop out - now most of my horses will do that to a certain extent, but the cobs were extra enthusiastic. After a while, I noticed a certain stiffness in their necks when I rode them. I started feeding them hay loose on the ground and the stiffness completely went away. As an aside, I also had Appaloosa mare that wore her teeth on the tips which we attributed to the way she pulled the hay out of the webbing Nibblenets. And I had another Welsh Cob that I fed in a Porta-Grazer who developed a callous on her nose from attacking the feeder too hard! This year, after all my horses came in from grass to dry paddocks for the year, I have been feeding the hay in multiple small piles on the ground around their paddocks. It simulates grazing, but the trade-off is that they finish faster. I do a little hay on the ground and some in a Nibblenet for my IR mare as a compromise. I'm not sure what I will do when winter weather comes, but I'm reluctant to use the hung Nibblenets with my cobs again. Nibblenets do make nets that can be put on the ground so horses can eat in a grazing position. I'm not sure I trust the cobs with those either!
-- Annette and Alley October 2018, Moscow, Idaho Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Alley%20Case%20History.pages.pdf . Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78421 .
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The only thing that has been investigated as far as I know is the effect of head position on the clearance of mucus and lung secretions. This is improved if the top of the trachea at throat level is lower than the thoracic inlet located midchest at the level where the trachea turns to enter the chest - i.e. bottom of the neck. However, horses also doze in a head down position and root around in a head down position. There are no studies showing effects of eating position only. Problems have only been seen were horses are tied in head up position for long periods - e.g. cross-tied versus head loose on long trips.
Hay bags restrict intake better once the holes are small enough. They can be secured inside tires, inside tubs on the ground or bath tubs, etc. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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I see multiple recommendations for hay nets vice the PortaGrazers. Can anyone speak, factually, to the validity of claims that the position and motion of having the horse eat at shoulder level from nets vice at ground level (head lowered as if grazing) is harmful to the horse? I haven't seen any studies to support it, but I've seen the claims from more than one source. Thank you!
-- - Julie Thomas September 2018, Seabeck, WA Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky . Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042 . Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044 .
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I don't separate them anymore. When I was putting Sparky's 3lbs where Ike could not get to it, Sparky would "help" Ike eat his, then go eat his own (smart little stinker). As a mini, Sparky gains weight easily, so that just shifted the issue. You'd think Ike would have lost weight this way...but he didn't.
-- - Julie Thomas September 2018, Seabeck, WA Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky . Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042 . Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044 .
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I'd also like to add that eating virtually nonstop is not an inherent behavioral need either. Horses that are not prone to IR, especially if fit, will self regulate their intake even with constant access to hay and being fed supplemental grain. Cortisol actually drops with feeding. Horses, like people, do have an exaggerated insulin response to the first meal after a fast even overnight. It's called the first meal of the day effect.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Argh, the perennial question of needing to balance caloric needs with behavioural needs! Thanks so much for posting this, because it is something we ALL struggle with.
Firstly, data have shown that 24/7 eating is not necessary. 6 to 8 hours between feeds have not shown to increase ulcer issues (can't say about behavioural issues, because that depends on whether the horse is locked in an isolated stall, out in a dry lot alone, or out in a dry lot with friends). Cortisol and insulin are not increased by 12 hour fasts. The best advice I have heard, from Teresa Palumbo, is to weigh out your 12 hours worth of hay, and then just keep adding nets until they only have a couple of hours left before the next meal. That's for night-time; if you can hang bags three times a day during daytime, same thing applies but with less hay. Here are some really good posts about that dilemma of Need-to-Feed vs Need-to-not-be-Obese: https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/topic/snarfometer_calibration_slow/985381?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
Jaini Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger ECIR mod/support, Smithers, BC 09 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy . https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711
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celestinefarm
Also, I have looked at Porta Grazers at equine expos, watched their videos, etc. IMO, the holes in the covers are much too large , which is why your horses are finishing their hay rations so fast. Highly recommend hay nets , with appropriately sized holes. Either marine rope nets such as Haychix sells or web nets such as Busy Horse. You can get the appropriate size net for your guys( and your hay, a soft easy to pull out hay will need a smaller holed net than a stemmier hay such as 1st cut orchard/mixed grass.)
-- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History
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celestinefarm
Julie,
How are you separating the two feeders so that one is not eating the other's hay? -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History
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Just to reinforce the first part of my post, horses graze all day because grass is at least 80% water and they need to do that to get enough calories.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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