Topics

Is Cushings inevitable?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I think one reason is that horses with EMS are more likely to get tested and also more likely to get laminitic during the seasonal rise. Yankee was positive by his last ACTH but negative a year ago by TRH stimulation. It may very well be he doesn't need pergolide except during the seasonal rise months.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

jmc
 

Dr Kellon,

Is there any knowledge at all why some horses show signs so early then? I've suspected early PPID IN Yankee since he was about 8... I believe there are others here with young horses with confirmed PPID as well.  He was confirmed IR in 2017, but he was compensated IR until the seasonal rise.

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Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386

Maria Duran
 

I am curious, is in these examples the cresty neck a natural feature of the breed or is it pointing out an IR degree?
How was the guide about fat over or under the nuchal ligament indicating IR? I don't remember well sorry.
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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Here are some definitely not thin, probably BCS 5.5 to 6, Fjords:

http://www.nfhr.com/catalog/index.php?colors=1

https://www.123rf.com/photo_19053428_beautiful-fjord-pony-stallion-moving-in-paddock.html

https://shoestringstable.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/ask-the-audience-fjords/overall-high-point-stallion-in-nfhr-evaluation-program/

Drop down for this one http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6431

Not to be insulting but he is quite definitely still fat. The thick and often cresty  Fjord neck can deceive the eye into thinking the body is in proportion. Try covering his neck and comparing his body bulk to his legs.

It has been said that any horse that lives long enough will develop PPID and there's probably a lot of truth to that. Age is still the only proven risk factor.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Deb Walker
 

Aw thanks Cindy :)
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Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Hi Deb.

Yes, I have read every one of your posts about Scotty. I feel like we are old friends. LOL

Cindy




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Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125

Deb Walker
 

I am no expert here Cindy for sure. What a beautiful boy you have!!! But I used to deal with the same issues for Scotty for years. It was always, you know, his feet would feel better if he had less weight. And now my vet comes out and wonders if he is holding enough weight. It's always something. I hope you can cut back on his feed to get him to a better weight, and hopefully some of the issues you are having will get better. I just want to add that Scotty always came back borderline (hardly past the mark) for PPID...until this year when his numbers soared to a figure I couldn't even believe he could still be alive and have. One day at a time.
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Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Yes, I just watched several videos on body scoring, which I found helpful. 

I had to quit soaking the hay in the heat of the summer because it smelled so rank; and so I went to more ODTBCs.  When the season changes, that won’t be the same problem, and I can go back to a greater percentage of hay.

Cindy

 

 


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Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125

celestinefarm
 

Cindy,
Oden's girth swellings look more like overly loose skin from having lost weight. Fat lumps are firm lumps, these look like excess skin to me. It's possible that as he would gain weight, he was getting edema in those areas instead of fat and when he lost weight, those areas would lose fluid and become flabby. Those pics you took are great. I think you are correct, they are 'swellings" in that he is retaining fluid in those areas ,  not fat. Again, this should correct itself as he continues to lose weight and getting his insulin in the normal range will help tremendously.

I don't know if I mentioned this to you , but I had a neighbor for about 8 years who bred and raised Fjords. She rode them, and drove them, they were sweethearts and so pleasant to deal with.  She always kept their manes roached so they had that amazing wild stripe down it.  She also kept them as lean as she could and I agree with Tanna about Oden needing a lot more weight off. Just like with people, it's best to do it slow and steady.  Great that you've been able to get his girth measurement down five inches. Overall , he probably, IMO needs about another 100 lbs off. 

I can't do this at the moment, but you should have his total energy needs calculated and compare that to what you estimate he is getting in total calories in the ODTBCs.  Remember, they have beet pulp in them , which increases the caloric count in them. It will help you tremendously with getting weight off him if you can determine what he needs as calorie count. I'm thinking that you might need to do less ODTBCs and more soaked hay.  
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Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Tanna
 

Hello Cindy?

Wondering if you've had an opportunity to review this document? 

Body Score Condition Guide

I don't mean to be bold but I think if Oden were my furbaby I might be leaning toward placing him at a BSC upwards of 7. In these pictures at least there appears to be a lot of him to love and I think you should aim for more than a couple inches. 

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Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 

Cindy Giovanetti
 

<<I looked at your CH for Oden, in June he was still out of normal range for insulin.>>

 

Yes, and based on the swellings, I assume he still is, and possibly worse.  I’ll retest in fall.

 

<<When you state swellings, do you mean fat pads?>>

 

I don’t know if it’s fat pads.  What I'm referring too at his girth, particularly on the right side.  It feels like loose skin, but puffy.

 

<< Can you take a couple of full side view photos of Oden and post in his album?>>

 

Done.  I circled the swelling in the picture of his right side.

 

<<We might be able to help you understand if he needs to lose more overall weight or simply wait on the fat pads to resorb.>>

 

I assume he needs to lose more weight because he still has that “apple butt” thing where his fat his higher than his spine over his hind quarters.  There’s a picture of this in his files.

 

<<Also, if you haven't reviewed his diet since the June insulin reading, that might be in order.>>

 

I think his CH is up to date.  He and Eeyore (miniature donkey) split 21 lbs divided into 7 meals a day.  Most of it is Timothy Balanced Cubes.  Small amount of soaked hay.  Scant handful of Stabul 1 here and there (as part of the 21 lbs.).  No grass. 

I can’t tell what percentage Oden gets vs. Eeyore, but Oden gets most of it, and both are losing weight. 

Happy for any further feedback.

 


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Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125

celestinefarm
 

Cindy, PPID is not inevitable. We don't know exactly why some horses develop PPID and other's don't.  Certainly, it's been theorized that stress, oxidation, etc. contribute, but we don't know the exact mechanism. DDE +T will certainly help, and it's an excellent way of caring for your horse to avoid a multitude of other problems, including those not caused by IR or PPID.  
I looked at your CH for Oden, in June he was still out of normal range for insulin. When you state swellings, do you mean fat pads? Fat pads are the last thing to resolve during weight loss and sometimes they never completely go away. Can you take a couple of full side view photos of Oden and post the in his album? We might be able to help you understand if he needs to lose more overall weight or simply wait on the fat pads to resorb. Also, if you haven't reviewed his diet since the June insulin reading, that might be in order. 
Are you weighing his hay?
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Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Cindy Giovanetti
 

My fat boy has lost 5 inches from his girth since February, from 84 inches to 79 inches.  I would guess he still needs to lose two inches, though, to my eye, he no longer looks fat.

In February, he was tested and didn't have PPID.

But he still has these swellings at his girth.  In my memory, these have always been worse in the late summer.  I remember, in the past, thinking he's struggling with the heat; he does better when it cools off

Now that I'm more aware of EMS etc., I am aware that he's had these swellings (plus swollen sheath) since February.  The swellings haven't improved with the weight loss.  And I am aware of the seasonal rise.

I assume the swellings mean his insulin is still high.  But does it also mean he's likely to have Cushings (in the future, perhaps)? 

If he's "predestined" to PPID, can it be prevented with DDE+T, or is it inevitable, just a matter of time?

I will have all the tests rerun in the fall.

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Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old Yahoo group
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden/Oden%20case%20history%20%287%29%20%281%29.doc
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125