Ongoing care


Tori & Floss
 


-- Hello :-)

My mare is into her 5th week of care now for laminitis and I was wondering what is the best way to start the turn out process once she is well enough to go out?

She is currently stabled/yarded 24/7 and won't be well enough to go out for another couple of weeks I don't think but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

It is Summer here in South Australia and we had above normal amounts of rainfall over winter/spring and the paddocks are still green but slowly burning off.

Should I put her in the driest paddock on the property and continue to stable for a time over 24hr period or will it be safe to put her straight out?

Thanks so much for any help.


Tori

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Floss%20Case%20History.doc  


Pauline <takarri@...>
 

Hi Tori

 

Welcome to the group!  Thank you for filling out a CH on Floss- and for putting the link in your signature. It makes it so much easier for us to answer your questions fully.

 

 I have a few more questions.  Have you had any bloods taken? Do you know what the trigger is/was for her laminitis?

Being a QH- it’s highly unlikely that she has PPID/ but it is possible that she is IR. QH are known for having a “thrifty” gene so some are just very good doers that occasionally get into trouble. Blood work should help differentiate that. In the mean time, let’s assume that she’s IR and attend to that accordingly.  If you have had bloods taken, please add that to your case history,

 

I will give you some details about our philosophy called DDT/E, short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise, and address your concerns as best as I can.

 

DIAGNOSIS: Is done with blood work. We recommend having blood drawn to test for Insulin, Glucose, Leptin and ACTH. ACTH is used to diagnose PPID (Cushings) while insulin, glucose and leptin are used to diagnose Insulin Resistance (IR). The samples should be drawn at home and NON-fasting as fasting will produce artificially low results and are a holdover from human testing protocols.   For further information regarding blood testing – have a look at this file. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9d%20Country%20Specific%20Information/Australia

 

When you get the results from the vet – add them to your case history and that will help us guide you better.

 

 

Diet:  We prefer grass hay/ native grass/meadow hay tested to be under 10% sugar+starch, plus a low fat (4% or under) mineral balanced diet.  We also add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but it also supports the delicate immune system of the PPID horse.   Until you can get the diet squared- I recommend using the emergency diet you were sent when you joined.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here/2.%20Emergency%20Diet.pdf

In the meantime, this is a safe, temporary way to feed that won't do any harm but will definitely help an IR/PPID equine. As important as what to feed is what NOT to feed. No grain, pasture, red/brown salt blocks, apples, carrots, sugary treats, lucerne. You should plan to feed 2% of ideal bodyweight in soaked hay per day, divided into 3-4 feedings. Small mesh hay nets are a great way to make the hay rations last longer. If you choose to use the beet pulp, just rinse/soak/rinse it before feeding it- to reduce any excess iron which can be a bit high in beet pulp .Maxisoy is also another safe feed that you can use & either of these feeds can be used as a carrier for the emergency diet (ED) items of salt, vit E gelcaps with oil in them, ground flax and magnesium. All of these ED items are available at your local pharmacy/grocery store or stock feed place.

 

Glad to see that you have stopped feeding the lucerne, Sad to hear that this is still being recommended. Lucerne is known to make some horses more sensitive in their feet- so until she is stable- stop it.

 If you are feeding the hay- soak it for 60 minutes in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water until you get the results.

 

The Gastro coat- Whilst not bad- it’s mainly– Psyllium Husk  and in a very expensive form – for what reason are you giving this & what do expect the outcome to be.The reason I ask is that there may be a better/cheaper alternative.

 

Msm also has the potential to be a problem  as it may pose an issue-  from Dr Kellon “ The precaution with MSM is concern there is a **possibility** (unknown) intestinal bacteria may metabolize the sulfur to sulfate which could then bind susceptible minerals especially copper and selenium.  However, if feeding selenium yeast and your copper level is comfortably above minimum after balancing (which it almost always is), it's not an issue.”

 

This is only one reason why it’s important to have the hay tested and balanced.

 

Now here is the hard bit- for now, she needs to be off grass. I find that this is one of the hardest concepts for people to get their head around- but there are ways to make it work, especially if you have a herd situation.  Here is a post from Jaini that sums it up so nicely https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/164970?p=Created,,%22how+can+my+horse%22,20,2,0,2713185

 

 I understand the weather patterns that have been happening, but even the driest paddock could be an issue. Sugar is stored in the roots- so whilst the tops make be drying off- the roots have gone into survival mode and are storing all the goodies. A grazing muzzle might be an option as it’s imperative that she gets some movement if she is sound enough- I’m a bit fussy about having muzzles on hot days and I know that SA can hot, so that’s your judgement call. Just make sure she can eat and drink through it.

 

 Consider alternative pain reliving medication to what you are doing now- if that is why you are using white willow bark/tumeric/clivers/hawthorn berry/

 

Those ingredients were recommended to me about seven years ago before I found this list and managed to simplify things. For my boys I had great success with Jiagoulan,

 

This may help your situation:  Have a look at this file:

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives

 

 

Trim: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis.  Look on the following pages of our website for more information about a proper trim.

Here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim and here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim  

 

You are welcome to post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so that our hoof guru can to look in see if you have an optimal trim in place.   Here's a site that explains how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html   

It’s great that you are both attentive with her hoof care & are padding & booting her. It may still be a good idea to send in the Xrays & hoof photo’s so we can ensure that you are doing everything you can. I know it  can sometimes be a bit awkward when dealing with hoof care professionals that are already doing a great job, but my thought on this that it doesn’t hurt to have a fresh set of eyes to join in the discussion. We all learn from each other. 

 

Exercise: The best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic. If there has been laminitis, we recommend no riding or exercising in tight circles until at least 1/2-2/3 of the hoof damaged by laminitis has grown out (at least 6-12 months, sometimes longer). Also recommend the use of boots and pads as needed for comfort vs shoes/appliances as frequent realigning trims will be needed, which is difficult to do if there are shoes. We also recommend using NSAIDs sparingly as they interfere with healing and can allow a horse to do more than its fragile feet are ready to handle.

 

That highlights the main points of our philosophy. There is tons of information on our website, in the files and archived messages.

http://ecirhorse.org/ also has a lot of great information.

 

 Don't hesitate to ask any further questions that you have!  

 

 

--

Pauline

Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas


Tori & Floss
 

Hey Pauline,

Thanks so much for your reply.

I have not had any bloods taken as yet but I will.

The trigger for her laminitis was a lush paddock full of clover. Tell tale signs of hardening crest and fatty lumps over her rump. Was not getting enough work.

I have been in contact with Carol Layton and Floss is on her Laminitis Mix along with a 500g Hygain Zero 2x a day. In that I also add, Salt, Vit E capsules, Linseed and MSM.

I will discontinue the MSM. 

She also has 6kg of soaked Meadow Hay spread over 24hr period. The hay has been tested and is less 10% sugar and starch :-)

She has been on Gastro Coat as I am still giving her Bute. But this has been reduced to 6ml a day as Floss has turned a corner since taking her off the Lucerne Hay and incorporating Carol's supps and following your diet.

The Hawthorn Berry, White Willow Bark and Turmeric I purchased to replace the Bute. I have not started her on those herbs as yet as they haven't arrived in the mail.

Do you think I should get the Jiagoulan as well??

I weigh her with a tape every week and at this stage she is averaging 6kg a week. She has lost 30kgs so far.

Floss is not on any grass at all atm. She is stabled with an adjoining yard of rubber. 

I have found a fantastic barefoot trimmer and am happy with her work and she is visiting regularly and micro-managing Floss's feet. The boots have really helped but I was very happy to have all her shoes pulled off and treat her barefoot. 

She is not well enough at this stage for any exercise and I will be walking her in hand and not do any circles once she is ready.

My original question was how long before she can go out onto a dry paddock? Does it depend on her bloods?

Thanks so much for your help.

Cheers Tori


--
Tori

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Floss%20Case%20History.doc  


Pauline <takarri@...>
 

 

Hi Tori,

 

Good idea to take bloods- just to be on the safe side, We are entering what is known as the “seasonal high” in the Southern Hemisphere so would be a good idea to rule in/out PPID

 http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise

 Glad to hear that she is feeling better. Even is she turns out not to be a metabolic horse- she will still benefit from following a better diet and management plan.

 If she was my horse I would order the Jiagoulan and not use the other herbs. Whilst there is nothing wrong with them and they have there place, I speak from personal experience with having had three metabolic boys. It was easy to buy everything that everyone outside the ECIR group recommended- but the bottom line for me was what gave me the best results in the end.

 To answer your question about the dry paddock- is it a dry lot as in no grass- or does it have dead grass in it.?

If it has no grass at all- and she is comfortable to move around- then go for it- movement is good for the body and the mind.

 If it has dead /dry/short grass in it- then I would be cautious in returning her to that – until you can confirm that she is or isn’t PPID.  Maybe a muzzle in the interim?  Short/stressed/ dead grass can still store high sugar levels.

 PPID horses can sometimes be returned to grass- only if and when you have the DDTE in place and micro manage them.  Best to play it safe until you know for sure.

  

--

Pauline

Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas


Tori & Floss
 

Hey Pauline,

Thanks so much for taking time to give me help and advice :-)

I have the vet booked for Thurs for bloods and will add to Floss's Case History as soon as the results come back.

Ok the Jiaogulan. I will get some and not use the box full of herbs that arrived today!

Tho I will keep the Turmeric as I love the Golden Paste you can make with it and it is amazing for my arthritis. The other stuff will go back.

So now I need to know where you recommend I get the Jiaogulan from please? Or just the local Health Food Shop? Do I get the loose leaf or tea?

I've read you shouldn't feed in conjunction with Bute? Floss is on 4ml now and reducing every day. Should I wait until it is 0 before I start the Jiaogoulan?

The paddocks here are all still tinged with green. There are a couple that are drying out but the rainfall where she is agisted is very high and we've had an exceptional year. So no there is no *dry lot* as such. I will wait till bloods come back and re-assess perhaps? She isn't ready to go out for a while anyway as still needs care in stable/yard.

She has another trim coming up Thurs.

Thanks again for your help :-)

Cheers Tori.



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Tori

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Floss%20Case%20History.doc