new member, trim evaluation request


kguest@...
 

Hi everyone,

I joined the group in December and have been lurking, reading lots, and really appreciating the depth of knowledge in this group. I uploaded a case history and photos for my gelding Jasper today; he is recovering from an episode of laminitis last May, so is not in crisis. Since undergoing the horrifying experience of having a four-year old horse with grave health problems I have been trying to learn everything I can to help his recovery and keep him safe. Until now, most of my experience with this has felt like groping around in the dark.

He has been on a beet pulp/grass hay/flax diet since the laminitis; he was getting some other stuff too, which I tweaked after finding this group. He is on horse mineral mix now, but I sent my hay off for analysis this week in preparation for specific mineral balancing advice. I have also banned my treat toting husband from giving undocumented anything. I'm planning on doing the suggested bloodwork in early March as part of our spring visit from the vet. So the Diagnosis/data and Diet parts are underway. Right now I would really appreciate getting some suggestions about his trim. I'm finding that is the most difficult part of the equation to figure out.

Thank you for all your collective work here!
Kristen
December 2016, Prince George BC Canada
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper
Jasper's Photo Album https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kristen,

Thanks for putting up the photos for Jasper:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346

As Maggie mentioned, there is room for improvement in the trim. Have you ever had any xrays done? Reason I ask is that his soles appear quite flat and the hoof capsule has quite a bit of height to it so it points to a possibility of there being some sinking involved. If you haven't had any done, I would suggest thinking about getting them. Here's the link to some suggestions for getting the most out of having xrays done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Getting-Good-X-rays

Overall, the heels are quite under run, with bars that are overgrown, splaying and leaning outward. All four feet are heavily flared. Likely, soles are thinner than would be optimal unless there is just too much overall height being left. Are you trimming the feet yourself or are you working with a hoof care professional?

If you would like some mark-ups and specific suggestions for addressing these issues, please let us know.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


 

Hi, Kristen, and welcome to another Central Interior BC'er!  I have one or two little tidbits to add in addition to Maggie's excellent advice.

First, great work on the case history, and on being pro-active for your boy. He is certainly gorgeous.  All the IR information that pertains to him will also be applicable to his mum.  Jasper is a classic case of IR clinical signs showing up when a horse that is IR at baseline gets to the end of growing.  

Pro-Fibre Crunch is a complete feed, so is not useful for providing the extra minerals needed in the hay (except maybe the snifter of selenium and iodine); it is balanced to itself, so there are no extra minerals to make up the deficits in the hay.  It will average 4.5% to 5% starch, and 4% to 5% ESC, but that is an average. Individual batches may have much higher numbers than that. I have found, with my IR crew, that the most sensitive mare will get footsore when she receives more than a half-pound of it.

Hoffman's minerals, like so many commercial balancers, has too much calcium, too much iron, not enough copper (although adequate zinc), not enough phosphorus or magnesium.  The bad news is that I have yet to find a commercial balancer in Canada that will act as a stop-gap while one is awaiting hay balancing and a custom mix. The good news is that there are several excellent ones available in the US, but between the exchange rate and shipping they tend to be cost prohibitive. The following are excellent trace mineral supplements: California Trace, California Trace Plus ( http://www.californiatrace.com/  ); Arizona Regional Mix, Arizona Copper Complete, Colorado Regional Mix, all available through HorseTech (  https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products ) ; The best complete balancer  is Uckele's Foundation U-Balance,   (  http://equine.uckele.com/u-balance/foundation )

I have just uploaded some comparisons of Canadian commercial balancers with two regional areas:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/Comparison%20of%20some%20Commercial%20Balancers%20to%202%20Regional%20Mixes   These "regional mixes" aren't available; we used to be able to get them from Champion feeds, but not since Champion was purchased by HiPro.  Please note, all of you reading, that regional balancers might or might not balance one's hay; hays differ hugely from area to area, and farm to farm.

As far as treats go, small amounts of Pro-Fibre crunch are great, but only tiny amounts. If you can convince your feed store to get in some Timothy Balance Cubes (  http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm ), they make the best, safest treats (I can't get them in Smithers). For home-made treats, go here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Treats%20for%20Horses  Plain timothy pellets are also fine as treats, if you can find them (I haven't found them up here). Plain timothy pellets aren't suitable as a major component of the forage, since although the *tend* to have safe sugar and starch levels, there is no guarantee.


--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




kguest@...
 

Hi Lavinia,

I would really appreciate markups if you have time. My farrier is coming a week from Friday, but if that's too soon I can get him back.

I don't have x-rays, but will add that to the list of things to do when the vet comes.

thank-you all for the input!

Kristen

December 2016, Prince George BC Canada

Jasper Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper 

Jasper Photo Album https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 


kguest@...
 

Thanks for the suggestions Jaini and Maggie. It sounds like for now it would be best to cut out the Hoffmans and go on the emergency diet until I can get minerals balanced to my hay.

Kristen

December 2016, Prince George BC Canada

Jasper Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper 

Jasper Photo Album https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 


 

Yes, cut out the Hoffman's, but be sure to add the magnesium oxide, Vitamin e and flax. When you ask for the bag of magnesium oxide at your feed store, be prepared for the "Are you from Mars?" look (we all get used to that). Since you do have a number of dairy farms in your area, your feed store may be more used to ordering minerals. Mag ox is cheap, and it should be no problem for the feed store to get it in.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Kristen,

Not a problem to get those to you in time for the scheduled appointment.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kristen,

I've added mark-ups to Jasper's album here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0

The general overview is that the feet are overgrown in many dimensions. Just because Jasper is a big boy doesn't mean that the feet should be allowed to to become long, flared and pancake-soled so that they fit some sort of internal picture we have of what a large horse's feet "should" look like. They need to be kept true to their genetic blueprint, which will tightly align them to the structures within so they can correctly support his mass. Right now, the toes are much too long horizontally, heels are severely under run and leaning outward, soles are thin and lack concavity, frogs have been stretched forward. The RF has a more upright configuration while the LF has been allowed to become flatter and longer - a situation termed high-low. These are all trim issues. Goals are to bring the toes back in the horizontal plane, move the heels back under him where they belong, remove the flaring all around.

LF lateral: White-out are is an idea of how the toes need to backed up to get rid of the excess toe length. Do not then thin the entire dorsal wall to make it blend visually into the backed toe - just address the lower third at each subsequent trim until it grows out.

RF dorsal: Lime lines are where the hoof capsule should be. Outside of these lines are the flares. The medial wall appears to be flaring more significantly than the lateral - which likely means it is also taller than the lateral wall. Need to bring these in hard, from the top, then bevel under so the disconnected material is relieved from ground contact to allow it to regrow well attached. Beveling will redirect shearing forces away from the compromised connections to allow them to regrow solidly attached.

RF lateral: This also has the LF medial in it. The light blue lines follow the coronary band - note the arched shape. It should be even, with no bulges upward. The arched areas indicate areas of the hoof capsule that are taller than the adjacent areas. Follow the tubules down from their start at the coronary band to the ground to find which areas need to be adjusted. Yellow lines follow some of the tubules from start to ground - note how run forward they are, more severely as you move from front to back. Also worse on the LF than the RF. Purple line follows one growth ring around the hoof capsule - note how uneven it is. Those waves indicate where the hoof is uneven is length at ground level, with the higher areas being longer than the dipped areas.

LF lateral: Blue line follows the arch of the coronary band. Yellow lines follow more horn tubules. Note the disparity between the front one and the ones further back. Pink line follows the dorsal wall, which has a slight bull-nosed configuration. It means the dorsal wall is being rasped flatter to make it appear straight from top to bottom. Unfortunately, this is disguising the fact that the toe is much too long horizontally. Purple line is where the last horn tubules at the heel should be located. Red line starts where they actually are and spans the distance where they "aren't" because they have run forward and have been squashed under.

RF sole: Green is where the healthy hoof capsule should be. Everything outside this line is flared, stretched walls that need to be brought inward. Toe backed up between 10 and 2, then walls brought inward. This should be done from the top so as NOT to remove any sole. Purple are the current heel buttresses, blue is where they should be, even with the widest part of the frog and with each other. Moving them rearward will take time as right now the rear half of the foot is lower than it should be with respect to the front half, leading to a likely ground parallel coffin bone situation. With the soles likely being thin, there is no way to make major changes to their location except in small increments done frequently. This means running the rasp once over the area directly behind the current location of the heel buttresses to flatten it and extend the heel buttresses rearward but preserve the already-compromised vertical height as much as possible.

Red is about where the true tip of the frog is - approximately 1" ahead of where the bars terminate in the collateral grooves. It doesn't need to be removed at this time, just need to be aware that it is being stretched forward as the entire hoof capsule is sliding forward. Yellow areas are the bars that are leaning outward, pooling over the sole and pressuring the walls at the heels and quarters to flare to the outside. Need to start taming them back into a more upright configuration but DO NOT amputate them as they are serving an extremely important structural function due to the loss of support from the rest of foot. Need to work on them from the outside working back in toward the frog over time.

LH dorsal: Blue lines show the significant flares, esp. the lateral wall in the heel area. You can probably feel an abrupt change in the angle if you place your hand on the hoof wall and slide it gently from front to back. The area where that flare abruptly starts is under quite a bit of stress and if not relieved, could result in a quarter crack over time.

LH lateral: Purple line follows the curving coronary band angle. Blue line highlights the bull-nosed appearance of the dorsal wall. This is a red-flag for the toes being both too long horizontally AND higher than the heels = a ground parallel or negative plane coffin bone. Yellow lines again highlight the run forward and  flattened angle of the tubules in the heels.

LH sole: Same as RF sole with the added issue of the bulging flare in the lateral wall. Green arrows emphasize the areas that are all too far out from the healthy hoof template. Need to bring all of those ares inward/back, from the top and bevel under to help deflect the concussive forces away from the damaged laminar connections.

The trim schedule will need to be short - no more than 2 weeks between adjustment initially - or you won't be able to maintain any changes made. Once toes get ahead and heels run under, it becomes like an out-of-control freight train, with the toes being the engine that hauls the rest of the foot ahead at an astonishingly fast pace. To stop the train, you need to apply the brakes often.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


kguest@...
 

Thank you Lavinia. The farrier is coming Friday; I have the vet coming on Feb. 10th and will do x-rays (and bloodwork), then have the farrier back immediately after that. For Friday, do you have a picture of a snubbed off toe I can show my farrier? Jasper has always had flared pancake feet (like his mum), but the length issue has come about since last spring (my regular farrier is battling a serious illness and so I've had someone else kindly step up in the interim). It would help if I could show him what the final product we're aiming for looks like, in addition to the marked up photos.

I also want to be clear about exercise right now. Are we looking at nothing for 6-9 months from the time these feet finally achieves their proper shape? He's about halfway grown out from the laminitis episode last May.

Kristen and Jasper

December 16, BC Canada


Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 05:39 pm, <kguest@...> wrote:
I also want to be clear about exercise right now. Are we looking at nothing for 6-9 months from the time these feet finally achieves their proper shape? He's about halfway grown out from the laminitis episode last May.

 Hi Kristen,

Exercise is an important part of recovery.  Please see this summary from our ECIRhorse.org site, which describes the progression to follow for a recovering laminitic horse.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-exercise


--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx




Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kristen,

Here's a link to one:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/photo/1755/0?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

The reason he has flared, pancake feet is that the toes are being left too long horizontally and the walls are being ALLOWED to flare instead of being kept tightly beveled inward. Same goes for his mum. It is fixable on both of them but someone needs to do the fixing and then maintain it.

How long to wait before starting formal exercise is going to depend on how long it takes to get the trim set up correctly so the feet start to actually heal. Once the template is in place - and being maintained there - need to wait until there is at least half of the damaged hoof grown out. This is especially important in a horse as big as Jasper because gravity is working against you. A pony/small horse will usually come back much more quickly. If there is no active laminitis, adding Jiaogulan to the supplements will help increase circulation and that will increase the rate of growth.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


kguest@...
 

Thank you Lavinia!

Kristen
December 2016, Prince George BC Canada
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper
Jasper's Photo Album https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346