Crypto Aero?
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Linda A <ojaildy@...>
This is from recent FB conversation and was wondering if I could get some feedback from Anna's (owner) comments below re: ACTH and IR horses. "That is true Sandra- actually 87%. What people also do not understand is that horses do not become metabolic from starch, but from feeds that are high in glycemic index- how fast the blood sugar spikes. that depends on how quickly the starch is digested. Processed feed is the worst when it comes to sugar spikes. Soy also slows the Thyroid, which causes metabolic issues and both Iron and Selenium can trigger insulin resistance. Chronic inflammation from synthetic vitamins (petroleum by-products) and glyphosate, increases cortisol levels and can cause cushings syndrome. Hence horses switched to Crypto from processed feed show that their ACTH levels (indicative of cushings) return back to normal after 3-6 months. Most IR horses are no longer IR within 3-6 months. Starch is expressed in a percentage, hence you have to take into account how much you feed. When you feed 3lbs of a 10% starch feed, you feed o.3lbs of starch, when you feed 1lb of a 28% starch fed, you feed 0.28lbs of starch..."'
-- -Linda Ojai, Ca September 2016 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20and%20Peanut |
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Sorry, Linda, I have to call BS on just about every statement in that quote. Major BS.
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy |
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Well, I should really include more information. Here is the website: http://www.cryptoaero.com/ Here are a couple of outstandingly erroneous statement from the FAQ's: Are there enough Omega 3 fatty acids in this feed? The ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 is 1:10. Hay and especially grass are high in Omega 3. If you would like to add some Omega 3s, please choose Chia Seeds (www.uschia.com). The fact is that hay has virtually zero omega 3 fatty acids (they are fragile, and are destroyed in the curing). Grass has an omega 3:6 ratio of 4:1. This is likely optimal, considering this is what horses have evolved to eat. The Crypto feed has an inverted 3:6 ratio, meaning it is pro-inflammatory. Chia seeds have a 3:6 ratio of 3:1, which is a heck of a lot better than the Crypto foods, but not quite as good as flax, which has a ratio of 4:1. Feeding 3 ounces of ground, stabilized flax will provide the same amount of omega-3 fatty acids as the average 1,000 lb horse would get if grazing fresh grass (which our IR horses are not allowed to do!) Do I need to give my horse a mineral supplement with this feed? Minerals are best provided free choice such as with a Redmond or Himalayan salt lick and I do recommend you provide all your horses with one. Free choice minerals are always a bad idea. Horses will eat, or not eat, them according to their salt cravings. Redmond and Himalayan salt licks are that pretty pink colour due to iron and a host of other contaminants. Analyzing one's hay, and balancing the minerals to the hay, is the ideal approach. Now, to be fair, this is "dedicated to my OTTB Crypto Aero" Since TB's are seldom IR, a feed that is 24% starch is not going to be harmful. Oats are indeed whole foods (so why feed this expensive rubbish if you need to have increased calories in a non-IR horse?) Just feed oats. If you are feeding for work, a 50/50 (by weight) mix of oats and beet pulp gives a nicely balanced major mineral profile, with all the energy needed for the hard-working (non-IR) horse; or for the hard-working IR horse if fed in the first half-hour after exercise. Chronic inflammation from synthetic vitamins (petroleum by-products) and glyphosate, increases cortisol levels and can cause cushings syndrome. Hence horses switched to Crypto from processed feed show that their ACTH levels (indicative of cushings) return back to normal after 3-6 months. Most IR horses are no longer IR within 3-6 months. This is beyond poppycock. The thought of feeding a 24% starch feed to IR horses, and expecting them to become non-IR in 3-6 months is worthy of the headlines in the National Enquirer, about flying cats found on Mars. This makes my blood boil, because the unfortunate IR horses subjected to this feed will become laminitic. Ditto the completely false statement about synthetic vitamins being petroleum by-products, causing increased cortisol, which causes Cushing's. Cushing's syndrome causes increased cortisol, not the other way around. Pergolide is the only treatment that will reduce ACTH. Enough said. If your horse is not IR or Cushing's, it won't kill them to feed Crypto Aero. However, neither will it do them much good. -- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy
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PS - Linda, I can tell your spidey-senses regarding marketing and horse feeds are being well tuned-in! Keep up the good work.
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy |
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I'm finding it difficult not to go off on a rant. Clearly, the representative has no clue about physiology or metabolic disorders. Since I'm short on time, I'll spare the rant, but one telling feature is all of the horses in the testimonials and of the team members. All of the horses appear to be in heavy work. The best IR-busting, anti-inflammatory, weight reducing, health promoting product on the market is absolutely FREE. It's called... EXERCISE. -- Kathleen (KFG in KCMO) Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc. Missouri, USA, 2005
https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ |
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Oh darn! I love your rants,Kathleen !!
Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada |
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Linda A <ojaildy@...>
As uneducated as I am about all this, I'm not THAT dumb!🤔Thank you for confirming some of my thoughts! I try hard and it takes me a bit longer sometimes but often go with gut too. She mentioned in a phone conversation several months ago that "in the wild" and "natures way"....I asked yellow peas, papaya, cabbage in the wild? 🙈
-- -Linda Ojai, Ca September 2016 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20and%20Peanut |
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Linda A <ojaildy@...>
I've been in horse business a lonnnng time....well tuned😃
-- -Linda Ojai, Ca September 2016 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20and%20Peanut |
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ansasha@...
Dear Jaini- could you please tell me more about cushings and elevated cortisol levels? It is well documented that elevated coritsol levels can cause cushings syndrome. Why do you disagree with that? Is there any new research on that that I am unaware of? And if you don't mind- your statement of Crypto Aero causing laminitis in IR horses- any evidence on that? What exactly are the contaminants in Himalayan salt? Thank you so much! |
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Hi, Anna, and welcome to the list! I can absolutely tell you more about cortisol and Cushing's. Giving steroids to any critter, for a longish period of time, will cause "Iatrogenic Cushing's Syndrome". This is indeed well documented. Iatrogenic (caused by treatment) Cushing's is not the same thing as naturally occurring Cushing's; in naturally occurring Cushing's, the hyperplastic or tumorous part of the pituitary gland, or the adrenal gland (depending on species and condition) causes excess cortisol (among other things), which gives the constellation of signs we recognize as the syndrome: poor immune function, crappy skin and hair, laminitis in horses, pot belly, calcinosis cutis in other species, and so on. The root cause is the hyperplasia or tumor; the result is the excess cortisol and clinical signs. The big difference here is that with iatrogenic Cushing's syndrome, stopping the steroid treatment will reverse most of the clinical signs (not all - some damage may be irreversible). In horses, Cushing's (PPID) is caused by loss of dopaminergic neurons, which are critical in the feed-back loop between the adrenals and other organs that produce cortisol (among other things). The neurons are lost, and the pituitary does not get the signal that the body has enough prolactin, cortisol, etc, so it keeps cranking out the stimulating hormones that cause the organs to, in turn, crank out more prolactin, cortisol, etc. Pergolide is a dopamine agonist. It mimics the dopamine effect so that the intermediate part of the pituitary gland finally gets the signal, and stops cranking out excessive amounts of ACTH. There is no food, no matter how wholesome, that will do this. Short story: elevated cortisol can result in the clinical signs we recognize as Cushing's syndrome. In most cases, that cortisol is coming from the animal's own system. Giving cortisol/steroids will not result in hypertrophy of either adrenals or pituitary areas; quite the opposite, in fact. Crypto Aero has 24% starch. http://www.cryptoaero.com/guaranteed-analysis.html Most of our IR horses will suffer foot pain on anything higher than 5% starch; the many thousands of members here have found that ESC plus starch over 10% will cause laminitis. Starch packs a bigger wallop, because it in converted 100% to glucose in the digestive system. The evidence is..... self-evident. The biggest contaminant in Himalayan salt is iron, which gives it its pretty pink colour. Iron overload is a common problem, and intimately connected with IR in many species. Iron in Himalayan salt is only about 40 ppm, but that is still iron our horse don't need. In addition, there is a smattering of lead, bromine, thallium, aluminum, and lithium. Who needs that? Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy |
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Hi All - Just so we are all clear, open and honest. Anna Frensemeyer (from the previous post) is the founder of Crypto Aero. Anna, I am extremely happy to see you have joined this group. I know your statements have been argued against for quite a few years. For example this discussion back in 2014: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/274365-crypto-aero-horse-feed In my humble opinion, I believe you may have a nice product for horses who do not have any metabolic concerns. Please take in everything this group has to offer and update your website. There are a ton of horses who can benefit from your product, just not these ones. Please put the horse first. Who knows, maybe this is your calling to make another formula that IS safe for metabolic horses :) This should probably be moved to the horsekeeping group....??
Nicole in VT Joined 9/22/04 |
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 04:29 am, Nicole Sicely wrote:
In my humble opinion, I believe you may have a nice product for horses who do not have any metabolic concerns. Hi Nicole, Can you elaborate on the above? In what ways do you see this as a 'nice ' product ? I'm open to learning what I am missing here.
Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada |
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Hi Lorna - Umm, I was just trying to be a nice person :) Saying it MAY be a nice product for horses with no metabolic concerns. I personally wouldnt recommend it, but again.... it was more of a statement simply to be kind. Hoping w/ a bit of kindness and openness Anna will be willing to change her statements to consumers. I personally was blocked from her FB page when I tried to state that her facts are incorrect. I dont want to stir the pot, just want to keep our delicate flowers off this product. I also posted about this on the NRC Plus forum. So you are not missing anything besides my sad attempt at being diplomatic. Epic fail? :) Nicole in VT Joined 9/22/04 |
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Crytpo Aero has popped up a lot with clients in my area. Would like to add the following comments to Jaini's post. Caveat, I have not looked at teh web site in several months. As was then stated on the web site, the reason for whole foods is so it will not upset the hind gut. It is contended that other feeds will. Whether or not this is true (IMO in most cases it is not), IR and hyperinsulinemia are not hind gut issues. The omega 3 and 6’s are inverse and as result pro-inflammatory. Rice Bran and Cabbage contribute to this. Cabbage is very high in omega 6 with no omega 3. Also not crazy about Rice Bran b/c of the potential for excess arsenic. Anna, we are glad you are here to learn more about IR and PPID, the mechanisms and approach for treatment. Have a look at our web site and the proceedings from our conferences for a lot more information. www.ecirhorse.org Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot |
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I don't see it as being good for any horse, having taken a look at the analysis. I worry about new members thinking that it might be a suitable product even for the non-metabolic horses in their herd. I guess I'm short of the kindness gene when it comes to the well-being of our equine friends.
Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada |
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ansasha@...
Nicole, do you take glycemic load into consideration or total starch fed? As in NSC is expressed in a %? Metabolic horses on Crypto are on a lb per day, so that is very little starch. Plus fat, fiber, and protein content as well as processing of feed is well documented to have an effect on glycemic load which is also related to speed of ingestion and digestion. I always put the horse first and have only begun recommending Crypto to metabolic horses since I have received countless positive feed back from clients that had been recommended Crypto not by me, but by their independent nutritionists and veterinarians. I appreciate comments and reviews that are expressed in a professional manner and in the best interest of the horse. I highly doubt the integrity of members that financially benefit from these horses by selling expensive consultations and / or supplements. How do you explain that none of these diseases existed 30 years ago when all horses ate a mixture of oats and flax and hay? My interest is not to gain more clients, but to actually get to the truth of why horses do thrive on Crypto (28% NSC), which puts your recommendations into question. Science is ever evolving and the assumption of knowledge is the first step towards ignorance. So if you truly and genuinely wish to help these horses, then we should be kind enough to each other to listen and evaluate. This is a great platform to do this, and it should be used as such- a discussion forum. One of your members did in fact follow your instructions and took her horse off Crypto and put it back on it because it declined.It is now thriving again. I would hope that we could work together as a team to improve the life of horses that are effected with this disease. Thank you, Anna. |
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Anna We need specific facts please that document your assertions as to delivery of your diet component and how the horses responded. It would be hugely helpful to the literature if you published your findings with the same but lets start here on this discussion forum. To do so is our foundation and what separates us from other internet groups. The fact is, for IR horses, feeding one pound of 28 percent starch is akin to feeding an insulin resistant child a Snickers bar. It is not the total dietary amount but the amount of each individual ingredient. In our experience of 17 years and 1000s of IR horses, the components of this feed are not appropriate for correctly diagnosed metabolic horses, regardless of what the company narrative may suggest. To show us otherwise, we request hard data. Please show us specific individual case history data, blood work for diganosis, dietary changes, work load and any changes, and follow up blood work. Not sure about your "doubt of integrity of members that financially benefit from these horses by selling expensive consultations and / or supplements" but you are in fact selling a feed. Right? We sell nothing here. We can certainly discuss why horses 30 years ago "were not diagnosed with this disease". Please let us know your intentions to learn are sincere and we'll spend our volunteer time going there. Potential areas of suspicion have to do with breed, longevity, diagnosis and unbalanced diet. Not hind gut issues or processed feeds. Science is truly evolving. What is your science, please? Ours is based on the factual physiology of the horse, equine evolutionary development, research from equine and other species where appropriate physiologically, and 1000s of histories narrated here from 1999 to present. Our goal is zero laminitis. NONE. Zip. Horses prone to IR, coming off of significant work, are particularly sensitive to feed regimens of high starch, fat, iron and inverse omegas. Your feed is not appropriate for IR horses. Please read our web site, our proceedings and join us at the 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference in Tucson to learn more.
Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ nolaminitis.org Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot |
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 06:50 pm, Nancy C wrote:
It would be hugely helpful to the literature if you published your findings I so agree with Nancy, Anna. This would be so helpful for all the horses we are all striving to help !
Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada |
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In response to a request for Case History data, I received a private message from Anna which I will address here for everyone's benefit. Anna - Because you are new to ECIR let me start with this: The mission of the ECIR Group Inc. is to improve the welfare of equines with metabolic disorders via a unique interface between basic research and real-life clinical experience. Prevention of laminitis is the ultimate goal. The ECIR Group serves the scientific community, practicing clinicians and owners by focusing on investigations most likely to quickly, immediately and significantly benefit the welfare of the horse.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina%20and%20Tartine https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20&%20Stormy https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse/Jesse%20Case%20History.pdf https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Pepper/Pepper%20Case%20History.pdf Thank you Katrina, Amy, LJ and Sherry for letting me use you as examples. There are many, many more. Anna, you suggested this link as a case history in support of Crypto Aero. https://theessentialhorse.com/2017/04/18/listening/ I have no doubt your author was head-splitting confused. We see it every day. This article is a good example of what owners are met with when they try to figure out what to do for their horses. There are many misconceptions, instruction based on belief vs evidence, and just bad advice on the internet. There are some areas where we might find common ground with this owner, but while she is passionate about her beliefs and observations, the evidence does not back up the conclusions that Crypto Aero saved this horse from laminitis or reversed PPID or IR. Assertions are made about the feed but not supported. As previously discussed, the ingredients are high in Omega 6s which promote inflammation in horses already prone to high inflammatory responses. NOTE: For those of you attending the 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference in Tucson, AZ, Dr. Kellon will be discussing exactly this in one of her lectures. The starch, digestion as 100% glucose in the small intestine, will drive insulin higher. it is not about the hind gut. Oats are not appropriate for IR horses, except in special cases and under certain feeding conditions, when back to work. https://www.ecirhorse.org/feeding-recovered-laminitics.php No information about original diagnosis, horse keeping methods or work is given. While not uncommon, this piece is a marketing testimonial, not a Case History that supports the use of the feed in IR or PPID horses. In addition to the above links, readers may like to check out ECIR Case Chronicles on ecirhorse.org which detail in narrative the results of having a good Case History. https://www.ecirhorse.org/success-stories.php
Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot |
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Two great posts, Nancy. Anna, none of this is an attack on you; it is a serious request for information and data to back up claims. As you can see from our case history forms, a lot of detail is requested. The reason for this is because all the details add up to the big picture, and it is impossible to make any coherent statement about a horse's condition without those details. In addition, lab work is very important. Many, many of our IR horses "looked" fine, and appeared to be fine, right up until the moment that some triggering factor tipped them over the edge into frank laminitis. Therefore, owners' assertions that "the horse looks great" aren't really very indicative of what is going on, without blood work to support it.
-- Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy |
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