Trim Evaluation for Luke please


Karen Warne
 

I am requesting a trim evaluation for Luke please and will have better pics in my photo album ASAP.   His X-rays are there.  

Also, I am wondering what the estimated time might be so that I can schedule my farrier to come?

I know, based on X-rays, that his toes are too long, his soles are thin.  Please note that he has a left front club foot (mild, barefoot, and managed with trims every four weeks).  I am also noticing that he has bruising of his left front heel, both sides, and I am not sure if he over reached and clipped himself, which he usually has bell boots on for, or if the bruising is due to stress in his foot.  His LF foot is the foot that's had a small abscess and both front feet were tender with hoof testers applied on 4/25.  He seems less uncomfortable at present.  

Thank you.

Karen and Luke

May 1 2017

Northern California


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,

Here are the links to Luke's case history and to his photo album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921

Please add these to your signature. Although there were problems with making signatures due to some Groups.io glitches earlier this week, those appear to have been fixed.

You are correct that the toes are too long and the soles a bit thin. There appears to be a bit of sinking as well. Unfortunately, the xray views were taken from slightly below the feet, aiming upward, so it makes them somewhat more difficult to interpret. There is no rotation evident on this set of xarys so not sure what you're referring to regarding "mild rotation is stable". If you have the earlier xrays, adding them would be helpful.

The bruising is in the heel bulbs so over-reaching being the cause makes perfect sense. It can get incorporated into the walls as they grow down. Generally, over-reaching is made worse when the toes are too long because they delay the time of break over and leave the front feet on the ground long enough for the hind feet to catch them during the stride. Backing the toes to their optimal position will help stop the over reach.

Here's the link to Taking Good Hoof Photos:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

It would help to have a set for all four feet. When was his last trim? Maintaining the current four week schedule makes sense so that's what to aim for.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 

I will add the links to my signature... good suggestion.

The comment about the rotation being stable is directly from the vet notes when she compared these X-rays done on the 25th of April.  That was in reference to the left front hoof which has a mild club.  There is some dishing on the dorsal side of that LF hoof as well.   I am not familiar with the term sinking, so would appreciate learning about that and what remedy is available. 

I have the 2103 and 2014 X-rays on a CD so I am not sure how to add them.  

His last trim was 4/23/17 and next scheduled for 5/25, but have sent a text to my farrier that I'd like to move my appointment up to take care of trim needed... I'd love your input so will go take pictures now and post.  

Thank you so much. 

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

The dishing in the dorsal wall is likely what the vet was referring to when she mentioned rotation - known as capsular rotation. The distance between the dorsal edge of the coffin bone and the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule should be even from top to bottom. The dishing is an outward indication that the laminar attachments have stretched and that this alignment has been compromised. It can be due to mechanical problems (toes too long), laminitis/founder (lamina become inflamed/stretched/give way) or a combination of the two. A realigning trim needs to be instituted to get the excess toe length removed and the breakover set back correctly so that the hoof can heal. If the trim is not corrected, the excess toe length continues to cause the lamina to tear with every step the horse takes.

Rotation can be bony column or capsular. Bony column rotation is when the alignment of the bones is not correct and the hoof-pastern axis (HPA) has a broken forward configuration. It's a more complicated problem that is NOT present in Luke's case.

Sinking is the common term for distal descent. This is where the bony column is sitting deeper down inside the hoof capsule than it should be. Most domestic horses show some degree of sinking over time, but not all. Getting the trim optimized is so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures is the only way to get this to start to reverse. Because the lamina cannot actually repair, it means that after the trim is corrected, the hoof capsule needs to be maintained in the proper configuration so that new, well-attached wall can grow down from the coronary band to replace the damaged parts. It takes 9-12 months for an entirely new hoof capsule to grow down from the coronary band to the ground. Because the vet mentions that there has been no change in this set of xrays from the previous ones, it means that the trim has needed correcting since at least 2013
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 

Thank you for the explanation.  My brain is exploding with all the new information... I have posted new pictures that I hope are better for you.  I am not a photographer and have to use my iPhone.  Delete any that are not helpful if you want.

so a couple questions... do we need to manage the club foot any differently?  I had always heard that we couldn't make a club foot into a normal hoof.  He does grow hoof very rapidly, which is why I have a trim every four weeks.  I have had three trimmers... the first one I let go as she wouldn't listen to the vet, and since then two different vets have all stated the toes need to be backed up... I have a relatively new farrier now who was surprised when she saw the X-rays as she thought she had removed a great deal of toe, but realized there was more to go.  From what my vet said, we need to shorten the toes, lower the heel on that left front foot, and the right front hoof needs the toes shortened, but already has a low heel... do you agree?   When I was taking pictures, it became obvious to my eye getting down at ground level the toes on all the feet are long.  

Do we need to shorten the toes and lower the heels gradually?  Wouldn't any dramatic trim possibly make his lame or ? I am really out of my league knowing what to have done, so having markups and pictures of what his hoofs should look like would be so helpful.

i did buy Cavallo boots with gel pads for him so tomorrow I'll get himused to wearing them for added hoof protection, particularly when he's well enough to ride, but even now while he might be tender still, although he seems so very much better the last couple days.

Thank you.

--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lorna Cane
 

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 10:03 pm, <rockyride4life@...> wrote:
When I was taking pictures, it became obvious to my eye getting down at ground level the toes on all the feet are long.  

 It's a real eye-opener, Karen, isn't it? A lot of us have been surprised by this. 

Happy to hear he's becoming more comfortable.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Karen Warne
 

I am learning so much... and appreciate this group!
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,

It can be quite surprising when you view the feet from ground level.

In general, yes to everything your current vet has said. I'll explain fully with the mark-ups. Thanks for adding the new pix. You are correct that you cannot make a club foot "normal" just by trimming it that way. A club foot is a symptom of an issue further up the leg/in the shoulder that is causing the altered bony column configuration. Need to address that in order to actually change the resulting club foot. In the meanwhile, the trim must still conform tightly to the bones within. In Luke's case, this isn't happening as the heels have been allowed to get a tad too high even for the current bony column alignment and the toe is much too far forward (long).

Also a good idea to use boots and pads at ANY time a horse is not comfortable. If you don't, they will attempt to compensate for the pain by landing toe first and by by altering the scope of the stride. Once you are sure the current boots are "keepers" you will need to add a strong bevel between 9 and 3 (rasp, grinder will do it easily) to keep the break over where it needs to be. Have  look here for more info:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=4740
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 

Thank you Lavinia,

i want to have my farrier shorten the toes as you and the vet said; do you know a timeframe you can do the markup photos as I'd like them as a guide...?  I know how busy you are.  

The boots (Cavallo Trek slim 3) seem to fit.  So, I looked at the pictures when you describe rasping the boot, but I need to understand how that is done, and how far the rasping goes back without destroying the boot integrity?  I will ask my farrier to do it for me.  

Luke seems totally comfortable at this time, however, I can still feel pulses in the LF hoof, although they are not bounding as they were before.  At what point should I exercise him (with boots)?  He is used to ring in his pasture, and Joe in a pen he is a tad bored now that he seems to be feeling better.

thanks again!


karen

Thank you again.

karen
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Karen,

If the boots fit well now, as soon as you bring Luke's toes back they will be too large. It makes for a conundrum. You might want to consider waiting until after he has his trim done to fit boots to the new hoof size otherwise he will need new boots at that time and you will be stuck with the current, non-fitting ones.

In the meanwhile, taping pads to his feet might be an option if needed.

I wouldn't recommend formally excercising him until those toes are backed up so that the break over is in the correct place. Otherwise, there is more damage being done.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 

Thank you.   When I have your markups i can get him trimmed... do you have a timeframe so I can schedule my farrier?   For now I have him wearing the boots in his stall/padlock just getting used to boots, and hand walking him.  He does not seem tender at all...

thank you.  I am anxious to get all the pieces in place for a full recovery...
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Karen Warne
 

Dear Lavinia,

I have the vet and farrier scheduled to come on Thursday morning... by any chance do you think you'll have time to do Luke's markups so I can show them your suggestions please?

thank you...


--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Karen,

I'll be sure you have them in time for the appt. Thanks for giving me the heads up.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 


Karen Warne
 

Hi Lavina,

i just wanted to follow up and see if you've had time?  Also, can you direct me to a sample photo of what a horse's hoofs should look like when their toe is shortened this much?  And should the trimming back be done gradually? 
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Lorna Cane
 

Not Lavinia,Karen,but this might help ,in our Photos section:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/photos


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Karen,

I'm working on yours - will be up late today.

Backing the toes and setting the breakover where it should be should be done as quickly as possible so that the damage stops and healing can begin. Have a look here for some more info:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/natural-hoof-trimming.html


--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Karen Warne
 


Karen Warne
 

Thank you... I have been looking at these.
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Karen Warne
 

Lavinia, you are a saint.  Thank you.  I especially appreciated the photo of the goal hoof.  

Do the back hoofs need their toes brought in too?  The fact that they are long may be why Luke has had a problem with over reaching and stepping on his LF heel. 

Thank you.  This is an awesome help to me.
--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921