Ferritin, iron and transferrin-necessary?
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LM
Hi, I have been reading through others questions and still not finding quite the answers I am looking for. A lil' background. 7yro gelding came to me with past history of founder in OH. We changed diet, trim, activity level and lifestyle, not 100% but fairly sound for seven years with exception of fighting deep thrush infections in central sulcus, managed decently with trim, meds, and boots when needed Found vet willing to set up account with Cornell and ran ACTH leptin and Insulin, ACTH was 34.5, Leptin was normal. Insulin was 15.85. Local general blood chem showed everything in normal range, glucose was 75. Used IR calculator which showed him as High Insulin Responder and Compensated IR. We are a non-profit and have tapped out our donations on this horse. I convinced vet to draw ferritin. Not sent yet ?: Does transferrin and iron HAVE to be tested in order to tell if there is iron overload? Of course there is inflammation present to be causing his pain and a digital pulse of 1 out of three and mild heat in hoof wall. ?: How does one determine AND explain to vet how one knows if the inflammation is driving the higher ferritin or if it is from diet? ?: At this point with above info collected and funds severely limited has anyone SUCCESSFULLY taken the approach of opting to not do those tests, assume the ferritin is high and spend the money on testing the hay and getting the mineral supplements to balance out the hay? ?: How are people at boarding stable handling the fact that hay may be changing all the time? Thanks so much for input! |
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LM
Euthanasia is around the corner due to a few circumstances. I would really appreciate help in helping this horse. Can Dr. Kellon or a moderator reply? Lauren Michele |
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Maggie
Hi Lauren,
We really need a case history on this horse to answer your questions best. Go here to join the CH group and follow the instructions provided. To address some of your concerns: "WILL NOT eat soaked hay." The only way to know if the hay is safe (under 10% sugar+starch) is to test it. Would he eat the soaked hay if it was laid out to dry first? ?: Does transferrin and iron HAVE to be tested in order to tell if there is iron overload? Have you found the iron overload folder? There is a ton of great information on iron overload there. Pay particular attention the Dr Kellon's Equine Congress presentation, 3rd file down. It specifically addresses iron overload and a mineral balanced diet. There's also a file on how iron overload affects the immune system. ?: At this point with above info collected and funds severely limited has anyone SUCCESSFULLY taken the approach of opting to not do those tests, assume the ferritin is high and spend the money on testing the hay and getting the mineral supplements to balance out the hay? Yes, with tight mineral balancing. ?: How are people at boarding stable handling the fact that hay may be changing all the time? Lots of innovative ways! Check out this file. Can you find low sugar/starch hay, test it and store it a separate area for this particular horse? -- Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response |
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LM
Thanks for your response Maggie. I believe I am part of the CH subgroup but I have not ever had any success downloading the Case History form to get any further. Can someone e-mail the form to me directly? No even dried, he opted to not eat the hay. I only let this go on for 24hrs. At that point colic was a concern. When I have gone on Uckele's site I do not see where you can inquire about the how and the price of getting individual mineral balancing. Do you know? Thanks Maggie |
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On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 07:36 am, lauren michele wrote:
When I have gone on Uckele's site I do not see where you can inquire about the how and the price of getting individual mineral balancing.Hi LM, Go to our Files... (see Wiki on left side of messages page,on the messages web site) Scroll down to number 6 - Diet Balancing Hang in . Baby steps. It'll get easier. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
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celestinefarm
Maggie, consider using one of the members here to balance your hay. Nothing against Uckele, but you will wait weeks to get a balance from them and then another two or three weeks to get the balanced minerals. Send your hay to Equi Analytical ask for #603 . Equi Analytical will send you free of charge sample bags for your hay and a form to fill out to include with the sample.
http://equi-analytical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/EQ_Sample_Information_Sheet_EF.pdf For balancing help https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/3.%20Getting%20Help%20With%20Mineral%20Balancing.pdf Additional balancing help from those who make general and custom supplements https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/Commercial%20Supplements%20SAFE/Acceptable%20Commercial%20Supplements%20for%20Ration%20Balancing.pdf -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 |
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Just a note here that long delays in getting a Uckele supplement are not the norm. I looked into the order of two members who had complaints. One couldn't be found as a customer (maybe under a different name?). The other connected with me for balancing on 6/26. Formula was sent to Uckele on 6/27 and price quotes went to her on 6/30. She placed the order on 7/7. It was shipped on 7/13 (two of the days in that interval were a weekend).
Uckele is a very large company that actually manufactures the supplements for some big name brands as well as their own line but for a very long time was the only company willing to make small individual custom orders (which they do for no profit) for us and have worked diligently to take iron out of most of their supplements (mare and foal line the exception, as they should be), offer individual minerals and other supplements like ALCar and Jiaogulan and have been top benefactors since the conferences were started. "Stuff" happens and if there are any problems please speak up right away to me or Customer Service but long delays are not business as usual there. -- Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001 |
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LM
Maggie,
you seem to be the main one responding, is their anyone that can just send me the case history form via e-mail. I have tried several avenues and people and no luck. T o make it worse the vet is unresponsive. As a past farrier, I do not want this horse to become the cases I got before The more time I spend trying to get a form and a responsive vet the less time I can spend helping him. THANK YOU! -- LM March 2013 Ohio/Colorado |
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LM
Dr. Kellon, I have read some of the files and talked to KSU lab, The vet I started using upon arriving here was initially very interested in setting up the Cornell acct. and learning about Leptin IR calculator etc. Now he is not. We have gotten to the Iron overload issue and nobody can answer my questions. The vet is not interested, KSU says there panel is for Ferritin, Iron and TIBC for $58 plus shipping. The lab tech thought that perhaps there was a formula using the panel I mentioned to figure out an estimate on the transferrin?? We are a small non-profit in unusual circumstances. Can you tell me what is the most cost effective way to find out if iron overload is an issue? Can it really be skipped and go to mineral balancing.? We are not at our own facility right now so hay sources change month to month. How can one be accurate in supplements? Especially as the horse becomes more balanced theoretically they should need different rations? |
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Kathy Hurd Hollister
Lauren,
where in in Colorado are you? I am on Longmont and have a hay supplier who grows low s/s hay. You can find low s/s hay here but it usually also ends up being high in iron. Also can give you vet references if you are in my area. Kathy Hollister joined fall 2016 Boulder County, CO |
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Yes, you need all three. Iron divided by TIBC x 100 = % Transferrin saturation. With inflammation/infection/cancer ferritin will be high but Transferrin Saturation low to low normal. If it's normal or high that indicates iron overload.
You can skip the tests, presume iron overload or certainly being at risk for it if IR, and just do the mineral balancing. The 4:1:3:3 Fe:Cu:Zn:Mn is fine for any horse but more important with iron overload risk. There are tips in the files for ways to store a few months' hay for a horse. I think you were already given that link. -- Eleanor in PA
EC Owner 2001 |
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LM
Thank you very much Dr. Kellon. That is especially helpful!
-- LM March 2013 Ohio/Colorado |
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LM
Hi Kathy, I am in Masonville, Ft. Collins area. I do know some vets here in Longmont to Ft. Co. area but wouldn't want to list them here. I don't know what the group policies are on giving out e-mails. I would gladly give them to you privately. Is there a way to message you directly or you me? |
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Kathy Hurd Hollister
Lauren,
you can email me at kathy.h.hollister@.... Patti in AZ is who has been balancing the minerals for my IR mare. We usually grow our own hay but did not cut this year so when it is time to purchase, I like to buy for the whole year for my mare. My horses are at home, thank goodness. Kathy Hollister member since fall 2016 Boulder County, CO |
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LM
Great Kathy. I will try and e-mail you some of the names and little info. Nothing too impressive yet but I know there are some good ones out there I haven't touched base with for a long time!
-- LM March 2013 Ohio/Colorado |
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