horse professionals


regina bruno
 

i don't know if this is ok to bring up here, but has anyone else developed a true dread when it comes to farrier and vet appointments?  my farrier and vet's office and others are connected and i am getting the distinct impression that my approach of knowing what i want is only tolerated, even though i'm spending tons of money with these people.  I'm furious and frustrated.  i already have a job.  it's hard (though honestly interesting) to learn all of this stuff while paying people who should know it in the first place.  ugh....

Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


 

Yes, Regina, I have.  It was the hardest and best thing I ever did was to fire the trimmer and learn to do it for myself and my horse.  It has taken a little while but well worth it.  Also the vet relationship is sadly going down hill too.  I called about the seasonal rise problem with my PPID/IR horse and they said they would get back to me and never did.  I made the decision to treat symptoms through the seasonal rise and already am seeing a great improvement in my horse.  We will go back to the regular dose after the rise and then try to get an appointment again of if need be find another vet.  But I was seriously upset when I called and told them how bad my horse was and they did not call me back.  I hope this feeling of being upset calms soon just in case I really need them.  It is so hard to find any other vets in our area.  I would hope they would have more concern for their patients (my horses).  Would love to have a Dr. Kellon student (vet) next door!

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM, regina bruno <rleb32@...> wrote:
i don't know if this is ok to bring up here, but has anyone else developed a true dread when it comes to farrier and vet appointments?  my farrier and vet's office and others are connected and i am getting the distinct impression that my approach of knowing what i want is only tolerated, even though i'm spending tons of money with these people.  I'm furious and frustrated.  i already have a job.  it's hard (though honestly interesting) to learn all of this stuff while paying people who should know it in the first place.  ugh....

Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .



 

oops,
Kim Lee with Malachi and Mateo 
NW PA
2010



On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Kim Lee Gillette <tkgillette@...> wrote:
Yes, Regina, I have.  It was the hardest and best thing I ever did was to fire the trimmer and learn to do it for myself and my horse.  It has taken a little while but well worth it.  Also the vet relationship is sadly going down hill too.  I called about the seasonal rise problem with my PPID/IR horse and they said they would get back to me and never did.  I made the decision to treat symptoms through the seasonal rise and already am seeing a great improvement in my horse.  We will go back to the regular dose after the rise and then try to get an appointment again of if need be find another vet.  But I was seriously upset when I called and told them how bad my horse was and they did not call me back.  I hope this feeling of being upset calms soon just in case I really need them.  It is so hard to find any other vets in our area.  I would hope they would have more concern for their patients (my horses).  Would love to have a Dr. Kellon student (vet) next door!

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM, regina bruno <rleb32@...> wrote:
i don't know if this is ok to bring up here, but has anyone else developed a true dread when it comes to farrier and vet appointments?  my farrier and vet's office and others are connected and i am getting the distinct impression that my approach of knowing what i want is only tolerated, even though i'm spending tons of money with these people.  I'm furious and frustrated.  i already have a job.  it's hard (though honestly interesting) to learn all of this stuff while paying people who should know it in the first place.  ugh....

Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .




hinecedark <hinecedark@...>
 

Hi Regina,
I feel your pain! Especially concerning farriers. Vets, on the other hand, have to learn so many species with so many different systems and so many different diseases and conditions that I am truly in awe of them. Yes, most are behind the curve concerning PPID and IR. But we . . . WE, thanks to this group, are on the cutting edge. Vet education hasn't caught up yet, but the good ones recognize success when they see it. Stick to your guns, you have a cheering section of thousands behind you. Your payoff will come as Smokey returns to health - enough payoff on its own. But, then, if you're lucky, you will find that your vet and farrier have learned some things from you! Which brings enough respect for your knowledge that they're happy to comply with your requests, as they want to see how long you can keep that horse healthy, doing things they are only just learning about!
No vet, no farrier, can do more for your horse than you can. Bribery (cookies) for the vet and farrier, or reminding them who pays the bills, whatever it takes. Keep your eye on the prize, do everything you're advised here, and Smokey will be your living proof that you weren't just "that crazy lady who wants us to do things different". 
What a sweet feeling while you're riding your happy horse! ;>)
Melinda
IN  2010
 


 

And the successes are sometimes absolutely astonishing.  My 25 year old horse, that has almost certainly been feeling like crap for ten or twelve years, looks like an absolute rock star after 10 months on 1 mg of Prascend, plus the addition of California Trace, Flax,, salt, and magnesium.  He is bright eyed, no curly hair on his legs at all, smooth, sleek coat.  Everyone is aghast at how good he looks, and yet he had clear laminitis last fall and winter before we started treating him.  He shines like a copper penny, like he did when he was eight..
--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

Brother Case History


 

You are certainly valid in your feelings.  I am a hoof rehabilitation specialist, professional in my field for about 10 years.  Have take almost all of Kellons classes more than once and have been testing local hays for 5 years and balancing diets with great success.  Yet I am the local weirdo with most of the local vets and farriers.  Someone I trained with in hoof rehab told me "If you enter this field you will have a bullseye target on you back. Be prepared and do not waiver from your gut and what you believe to be right."  

It has been a hard road, but I have traveled it knowing there are other out there who practice the same principals and though we are not in the mainstream we are making a difference.  
--
Debora Lay
LayzD Equine Services LLC
Corvallis Montana 

Joined 2/7/12CIR 0113/0615, NRC+1112,  NAT, MPG 0911 and others


LM
 

Hi Regina,

It is VERY frustrating! I second Melinda and DarkHorse's suggestions. I also know that area. It is very hard. People are not comfortable with going out of their box. I am a farrier and I have six years of education in health and medicine as well as decades of experience there and just last night s farrier back there told me I'm full of bull**** because I made the simple statement of a horse's hoof health can be compromised by being shoed on a chronic basis. Because I use herbs for a lot of different things and very careful restricted use of vaccinations a vet in Lisbon told me "I'm just like the witches they used to burn". They get very extreme! 

But stick to it. Treat them well and insist for the same respect back, if they can't do that then move on. We have finally reconnected with a vet, now that we are in CO, that is way more updated than other vets even out here. He can also tell you he has a lot to learn about this particular subject and he is open to hearing and trying my ideas when I can explain why. I compliment him a LOT on his willingness to keep an open mind and also that we can agree to disagree sometimes with no upset feelings, that's what makes us a good team. I let him know he is unique and I'm grateful for him. The little extra effort to let him know that has helped build an even better relationship. When I look for someone new farrier or vet, I ask them right from the get go, before they come, do they do any integrative medicine or hoof care, what is their experience with x,y,z, condition, what's their willingness to work with me as a team. etc. If I don't get the answers I'm looking for I keep dialing. I know there is not a lot of very educated AND open-minded people back there but I think eventually you will find someone that says "yeah I'd take that on and yeah I'd like to work as a team". You are not alone!
--
LM
March 2013
New Springfield, OH/Ft. Collins, CO

ShineysLittle Pistol
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LM%20and%20Shineys%20Little%20Pistol
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9106


Laura Block
 

Regina - I get the same impression from a vet at our local equine clinic. It is definitely not tolerated with some professionals for horse owners to be knowledgeable, educated on their horse's metabolic condition and have questions. I shared the story on here so won't go into it again, but it ended with the vet and barn owner against me with horses getting the notice to leave. It is hard especially if you board. I think some professionals think you're nuts when you say your horses cannot have grass pastures. Luckily we found a wonderful barn where the owner has an IR/PPID pony and follows the protocol. Stay the course, be courageous and continue being Smokey's voice. It is so worth it when you see those big brown happy, content eyes. 
--
Laura - May 2016

 

 

 

Oshkosh, Wisconsin (U.S.A.)

Wisper Case History Photo Album 

Jack Case History Photo Album 

 

 


daffy2fergie
 

"Yes, most are behind the curve concerning PPID and IR."

Or, they might surprise you like mine did.   A comment I made about using the IR calculator to explain why I wanted glucose done sent her to do some research, and she is now doing the glucose and insulin testing for any client that might have an IR equine. 

Now to work on the insistence on fasting blood draws.   One step at a time.
--

Gina and Daffy 
2005   NC
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gina%20and%20Daffy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8317


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:57 am, daffy2fergie wrote:

Now to work on the insistence on fasting blood draws.   One step at a time.
Ask her to go here and look at table 3 :

https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2016/11/2016-11-2-EMS-EEG-Final.pdf

"Fasting samples no longer recommended"

Only took them 15 years to realize that a test which still misses 20+% of horses at risk when nonfasting is not going to improve by fasting!
 
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Helen Temps
 

How can one manage the Pergolide dosage without a Vet?  I guess I should say, how do you get a RX refill without the Vet.  If you regulate it according to symptoms and run out sooner than you should, doesn't your Vet not ask why you are running out earlier than you should, or do they not monitor it?  I had to wait 2 weeks for a blood draw (which has still not been sent in to Cornell 2 weeks later, but that's another story!!) to get the OK to up the dose, which I was panicking about due to symptoms.  IMO, that was 2 weeks too long.
--

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Chloe.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929


Julie Allen
 

well, as far as the pergolide increase you cannot do that with out the vet approving the higher dose. 
I have personally fought with the vets in my area for going on 11 years concerning metabolic issues with my late pony and my current cushings mare,and other horses that owners have asked my help with.

medicine is called a practice for a reason, its fluid and constantly improving and learning. 
In the beginning of my walk with horse nutrition I thought everyone would be as amazed and thrilled as i was about the great and obvious knowledge I had learned. WRONG , I have a tendency to be snarky with people who tend to dismiss me, when I have researched and learned but don't have a degree after my name..I made some enemies, okay.... I made a lot of enemies, I live 2 hours from one of the greatest equine veterinary teaching schools in usa, and back then they didn't get it and the vets and assistants coming from there didn't get it, no one got it..I couldn't understand why they were so stupid, 

horse after horse that I tried to help foundered ,were put down and it could have been prevented IF the owner had listened to me and not the vet.
Last week  a vet in my clinic  told a barn owner where my daughter works , that the horse dunking its hay was enough soaking..ummmm! no its not

My daughter has been on the journey with me since she was 15 years old in fact this group and its knowledge and my previous pony inadvertently saved her life as her symptoms of type one diabetes parallelled my ponys, and I had to force the medical doctor to test her blood glucose which was over 790 , this was after a huge argument with the doctor over whether it was  mono or diabetes...

I won she lived... I learned. be your own advocate and your own horses advocate.

this will require courage to not back down, do not allow yourself to be intimidated by the degree, remeber 10,000 horse owners can not be wrong, it will require patience and respect for those who really do want to help your horse but just haven't caught up yet. You will learn to read your Vets attitudes,  those who are dismissive and condescending,  I smile and say thanks, and I have actually said to one , I appreciate your opinion but I'm paying YOU to do what I ASK.
when you find a vet willing to listen and read the things you inevitably will print out for them to read, work with them, 

the vet that I made such enemies with 10 years ago now writes articles on metabolic horses in a large equine magazine , I smile to myself and say finally..it took you long enough. My current vet does not agree with me on many things, (compounded pharmacy being the biggest disagreement), but its my horse my choice.. and she couldn't deny that my old pony lived and lasted as long as she did because of how I cared for her.. she was almost 40 when she passed. 
i have enough pull with her now that if I feel my cushing mare needs to up her dose I just call her and let her know how much of and increase i think she needs,

but I ASK her what she thinks.... giving horses symptoms, top line, coat changes , etc and she has complied every time calling the compounding pharm to up the script, in the beginning it was an argument over using praecend verses pergolide ..( its the same thing)

I too once felt the dread of calling out veterinarians, I have used 7 out of those 7 --two have been willing to listen and asked where and who I got my info from and actually came on board..

you cannot have courage with out humility, but you have to fight for what you know and can prove. 
just take a deep breath and smile and do what you know to do,  even if you have to pay extra , or send samples yourself or whatever.

Dont back down. Be kind and respectful, and don't doubt your self and your instincts about your horse.













--
Julie with (new) pony in oregon
oct 2006

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8750
https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Case%20History%20Form%20aria%20pony.doc


Barbara Rosensteel
 

Dr. Kellon,  

After reading this this 2016 document from the Equine Endocrinology Group, I can understand why so many veterinarians are resistant to listening to what their non-veterinarian clients have to tell them based on what they've learned from the ECIR group.   As no veterinarian can be expert, or up-to-date, on everything there is to know about everything, I expect that this is the type of document veterinarians would refer to when making recommendations for diagnostic testing and treatment for horses that present with symptoms of EMS (or IR).    However, this document includes tests and recommendations that go against (or at least do not include) the ECIR protocol, and omits entirely any mention of the protocols developed in the ECIR group. 

  For instance, to diagnose EMS, they present dynamic testing and postpandrial insulin response tests, with no mention of the simple glucose and insulin testing and G:I ratio.     In their management recommendations, they recommend testing hay for NSC, not ESC, and do not present an upper cut-off point above which the hay should be either not fed or soaked.  In addition, they say to provide a vitamin/mineral/protein balancer without any mention that it should be balanced to the hay/forage analysis.  

I don't understand why this is, in the year 2016, after all the years in which the ECIR protocol has been tested and used successfully, that it is apparently ignored by the EEG,   Since, as we know, peer-reviewed research and empirical studies should form the basis of any diagnostic, treatment, and management recommendations, I was wondering why these, apparently top-tier, veterinary researchers in the EEG are not seeing (or are ignoring) the research that is being published and presented at forums such as the No Laminitis conference?

Just some musings.....

Barbara

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


--
Barbara Rosensteel

Sept 2007, Cookeville TN


Nancy C
 

Hi Regina

I used to dread vet visits.  DREAD them.  After five vets, I found one that understands what we do and will work with me in teh way I want to.  I make sure I give her the back up she needs in terms of studies, outcomes, etc.

I've been luckier with my farrier/trimmer.  It only took three before I got to my sainted pro and he has put up with me for fourteen years now.

You can do this. Just keep learning and keep telling them it's your money.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



regina bruno
 

Hi KimLee.  that's terrible that they didn't even call you back.  pretty amazing that you managed on your own....and Good for you that you took on your trimming.  i see that coming down the pike but am so busy working, managing horse changes, and renovating to eliminate grass it's going to have to wait a bit.  nice to know i'm not alone.  thanks for your reply.  i don't know what i would do without the people on this site.
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


regina bruno
 

ha ha ha Melinda, my friend in Georgia told me to get some chocolate for the vet!!! i guess i should try and make something tonight as they are coming tomorrow.   after not asking the right questions for too long and discovering all the mistakes made over the years, i'm sticking to my guns.  like you say, gotta keep my eye on that prize, a happy, healthy horse who i will one day ride again.  thanks.  
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


regina bruno
 

how great to hear this, Gail.  you must be so happy.  thanks for taking the time to share that.
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


regina bruno
 

it strikes me, Debora, that "Be prepared and do not waiver from your gut and what you believe to be right"  is not only the best advice ever, but how i've always tried to live my life.  thank you for the reminder.  I respect your tenacity out there in Montana.  thanks for replying.
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


regina bruno
 

LM, you certainly know exactly what it is like out here.  last time vet was here the TECH said that my trimmer is the best around.  I told her how bad his last trim was and mentioned that i might just learn to do it myself.  she laughed at me....grrrr.....the new vet is a student fresh out of school in colorado.  she is coming tomorrow to do some acupuncture.  i need to take Melinda's advice and get to baking tonight....she doesn't want to do acth, which first vet neglected to do, because of seasonal rise.  it's just so overwhelming to be making all these changes, spending all this money, learning all these things, and managing these people.  but for Smokey, i do believe i'd walk across the desert, so i will persist.  thanks for the shout out.  :)
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


regina bruno
 

and hear that nicker when i approach the barn....
that must have been a trial, Laura.  so glad you found a good barn and that those days are behind you.  thank you for replying.  it's good to know that i'm not alone, terrible to think how common it is.  
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .