Looking for help getting weight on my picky eater, who is IR and PPID


Emma B
 

Hello, I'm new to the group and uploaded our case history here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma%20and%20Noisette

I'm missing some data but will update once I can find the rest of my records from a couple years ago. In short, I have a 25 yo anglo arab mare who unfortunately has had laminitis three times now. Once in 2013 when we first discovered she was IR, once in 2014 despite strict diet control when she was fed untested hay (which I suspect was the cause), and once this spring even though her paddock had a negligible amount of greenery (we figured she could get maybe half a mouthful of grass/weeds in a day, so thought she was safe). Insulin has been high since 2013 but was exceptionally so this spring during her flare up.  Although her ACTH came back normal each test, we put her on 1 mg/day pergolide as a precaution starting in 2013.

Her ACTH had come back normal until last month.  She changed from her usual energetic self to very lethargic. Ran some bloodwork and her ACTH was elevated, so we put her up to 2 mg/day.  Big mistake as her appetite decreased (did not know of the pergolide veil til recently). She's always been a hard keeper and a picky eater. Cut pergolide back to 1 mg and then increased by 0.25 as her appetite returned (as much as it ever returns ... ).  She's up to 1.5 mg/day now but still isn't eating enthusiastically.

Other potentially compounding factor is that we treated for a suspected ulcer in the spring, and are considering retreating as RBCs were slightly decreased on latest bloodwork (ulcer or age? or ?).  Vet wants me to take her off her 28.5 mg/day dose of previcox for a week to see if we have an improvement in appetite, but the latest decrease in appetite was clearly at the time we increased her pergolide, so I suspect that's the culprit. 

So I am looking for suggestions on diet (need more weight on her, and need her to eat more; imagine part of the answer would be more high quality hay), pergolide dosage/tapering, as well as overall approach.  I should mention that she is sound and in light work as her age and joints dictate :)  I included her current feed and hay info in the case history, but can write it out here again if that would be helpful.

Thank you all in advance for your time and consideration.

Emma and Noisette
Ottawa, Ontario
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma%20and%20Noisette


 

Hi, Emma, and welcome to the list!

First of all, thank you for the excellent work on the case history!

I have a couple of thoughts, here:  Firstly, did you get a chem screen and CBC with her latest blood test? I am assuming yes, because you said her RBC were a little low (not unusual in a senior horse). Just want to double-check that her kidney function is okay, and kidney analytes aren't elevated.

Second, if she has been on Previcox for a while, it is best to wean her off rather than stop cold turkey. There is  a possibility of a NSAID rebound, when whatever pain there was before seems to be amplified after stopping long-term NSAIDs (well-researched in people).  So first, go to every other day dosing for a few doses, then every 3 days for a couple of doses, then one more dose after 4 days. Does that make sense? 

Gastric ulcers are always at the top of the list with picky eating - you can do some quick (ish) tests to see if anything changes before going the Omeprazole route again:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Ulcers   

I suspect you may be correct, though, and the pergolide might be the culprit, given that her appetite returned to "normal" (for her) once you went down to 1 mg.  Did she have another appetite decrease once you got to 1.5 mg?

Now - the feed. I do have some bad news for you about the Buckeye products.  https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/products/safe-n-easy-pelleted.aspx     https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/products/gro-n-win.aspx   Although it says "NSC less than 12.5%", that consists of 9% starch and 2.8% ESC, which is enough to blow the feet off of any IR horse. We have a bunch of feed analyses in our files:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds   and here is the Safe n Easy:  (go to second page) https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Buckeye%20Safe%20N%20Easy%202008-08-29.pdf  Oh, yes, and there is added iron, which is never good.

This is common for many feeds. I haven't found any Purina or Buckeye feeds suitable for IR horses, so the Safe n Easy and the Grow n Win are adding to Noisette's issues, unfortunately.  The Ultimate 40 might not be terrible; at least the omega 3:6 is 1.7 to 1; however, the ideal is 4:1, which is found in flax seed (ground and stabilized) or flax seed oil.

The grass in mid-summer to fall will also be contributing, sadly.

Now, for some good news. There are two things you can use that are easy-peasy in a boarding barn situation. One is Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes:  http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm  Some horses love them dry; some prefer them with a little water added to fluff them up. Because they consist of cut hay, and beet pulp (as well as some vitamins and minerals), older horses get more out of them then they do straight hay.  They are a complete feed, and Noisette can eat as much of those as your pocket-book will allow.
The other one is soy hull pellets; they soak easily, have a snifter more digestible energy than hay, and are very easily digested as well (since they are a pellet).
Beet pulp is the weight-gain product of choice, but it needs to be rinsed, then soaked, then rinsed, which is a PITA in a boarding situation. Many people do this at home and store the results in the fridge, to be delivered to the barn fridge for later consumption, but the cubes or soy hull pellets are easier.

I couldn't find the hay analysis in your case history - is it somewhere else?

I am going to do our usual intro of Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise a little differently here, since I already started with Diet, but the Diagnosis is hugely important as well.

So, more about diet:  The ideal IR diet is forage-based (your hay), with all elements less than 10% ESC plus starch, and the starch less than 4 or 4.5% (depending on how sensitive your horse is). You now know that feed bag labels can be mis-leading; and that you need to see the actual ESC plus starch numbers, not just the NSC (which is an outmoded term, anyway). So, no apples, carrots, sweet feeds, pasture. The next thing is to get minerals balanced to your hay. Right now there is only ONE over-the-counter mineral mix (that I can find) that is suitable for horses here in Canada, from Le Cheval au Naturel:  http://lechevalaunaturel.blogspot.ca/p/blog-page_10.html  We generally don't like to use Vitamin C at the outset, as it helps increase iron absorption, and many of our horses are iron-overloaded; however, it is still by far the best that you can get here.  Once you get your analysis done, though, and get someone to help with mineral balancing, you can get a custom mix from Mad Barn:  https://www.madbarn.com/products-2/  Note that the mineral mixes that are pre-made are not suitable because they have buckets too much manganese in them.  I know Scott is kicking around the idea of having a mineral mix without manganese, but he is uber busy, so it hasn't happened yet.

In the meantime, please add to your diet: 1 to 2 tablespoons of salt (this might be tricky as she is a picky eater); 2,000 IU vitamin E as 400 IU capsules containing soy oil; 1 teaspoon of magnesium oxide (should be available from your feedstore, for about $30 for a 50 lb bag; the mag ox from Basic Equine Nutrition is tres expensive); 1 cup of ground, stabilized flax, or 2.5 to 3 tablespoons of flaxseed oil. I would stop the canola oil (high in omega 6), and just use the Ultimate Finish 40 as a taste-tempter until it is gone. Grab a bag of the timothy balance cubes, and a bag of soy hull pellets, and see if she is at all interested in eating either. With the soy hull pellets, just add a little bit of salt to start with, so she doesn't reject it outright, and add a little of the Buckeye as a taste tempter; alternatively, 1/4 to 1/2 tsp of stevia.

Something else that helps enormously with the pergolide blahs is APF, from Auburn Labs:  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html  You can get it from there, or from Valley Vet:  https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=apf  (if anyone knows where in Canada it is available, please let us know!).

Now, the rest of the story.....

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substituteadiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 

  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! 

Thanks for the good work on the case history; ask any and all questions; and, again, welcome!


--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Emma B
 

Hi Jaini, thanks for taking the time to go over our info and for your detailed response!

yes we had her CBC done and nothing was flagged for liver or kidney. 

Thanks for the infp on decreasing previcox. And yes she did have another appetite decrease at 1.5 mg pergolide, but it's come back up to Normal-ish now.

darn re the buckeye feeds. Is your recommendation to eventually stop feeding those and switch Noisette to a diet of beet pulp, the hay cubes, soy hulls, flax, and mineral mix? Do you  think that will keep weight on her? I thought a pelleted feed would be the most bang for my buck. Is there another pelleted feed you would recommend? She's been so picky that I've been having to add in the Brooks Fibre O Plus to keep her interested. She also hasn't been willing to eat too much beet pulp at once. 

I do have hay analysis and will upload soon. It is under 10% NSC.

thanks again,

emma


 

Hi, Emma - yes, generally speaking, pelleted and extruded feeds can be the best bang for the buck when dealing with toothless horses; however, if they are too high in sugar, starch, or fat, they do more harm than good.  Beet pulp and soy hulls are highly digestible, and so are good choices, as are the ODTB cubes.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find another pelleted feed in Canada that cuts the mustard (sad, but true). Hi Pro Pro Fibre Crunch is supposed to be 5% starch (which is a little high, even so), but more than half a pound of that makes one of my IR horses very foot sore, so can't recommend that. That leaves us with the only 3 I have found so far: ODTB cubes, beet pulp, and soy hulls.

I would not so much gradually stop the Buckeye feeds, as totally stop them and start the others (half a pound at a time, increase every few days), and use the Buckeye in small amounts only for taste tempting.  Also, continue the free-choice hay, especially at night when she is in her stall. 25 isn't ancient, but it is getting up there, and I have found that our older horses just take a lot more time to eat. Stall time at night is the ideal time to provide the feed.

If she likes the Brooks Fibre O , you can either continue with that (not ideal, but helpful if it gets her to eat), or just switch to ground flax and see if she likes that.

Oh!  I meant to add in my last post (but forgot) the link to the Picky Eaters Checklist:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Picky%20Eaters%20Checklist.pdf   This is at the bottom of the first page of the Pulling It Together folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together   

Providing sufficient iodine, selenium, copper, and zinc (and vitamin E) are crucial to over-all immune health and hoof and coat quality; iodine is particularly crucial for metabolism.  We are so lucky in so many ways in Canada; however, the availability of acceptable ration balancers is not one of those things.  You have a few choices, most of which are short term: 1) Start with the Cheval au Naturel  2) Get some Source http://greenhawk.com/wdItemDesc.asp?strilhID=Web&strmdNumber=SUV7775&stricSKU=SUV7775 and use half of the enclosed scoop, while waiting for your hay analysis and balancing  3) Once you get your hay balancing info, you can mix the minerals yourself, using a variety of ingredients; or you can get Mad Barn to do a custom mix for you. My custom mix from Mad Barn at the moment costs $1.44 per day, but it has a lot of monosodium phosphate in it, which is expensive.  (it is still only $43 per month per horse, which is a lot less than many over-the-counter supplements that don't actually do much good).

I just went over (once again) all the supps available from Greenhawk, and couldn't find anything useful. I have emailed Herbs for Horses to find out their copper/zinc etc content of their HoofMaster.  

At this point in Noisette's journey, reducing the sugar and starch is key, as is getting her to eat more. You will find once you get all the other vitamins and minerals on board, she will start to bloom; for now, work on the Temporary Emergency Diet (no need to soak if your hay is lower than 10% ESC plus starch).  Just as an FYI, here is a link to commonly available ration balancers in Canada, vs what an regional Alberta mix would need (which wouldn't be wildly different from Ontario, except the selenium and maybe the manganese):  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/Comparison%20of%20Various%20Commercial%20Balancers%20to%202%20Regional%20Mixes  (in the Diet Balancing folder  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing )  

I still yearn for the days at the Greenbelt Riding School when life was horses at pasture, warm bran mashes and oats, and we kids ate Twinkies and those weird pastry things from the store down the road. Sometimes it is hard to change our horse-keeping methods, but it is very much worth it.


--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Emma B
 

Hi Jaini, 

sounds good to stop the buckeye. Really the Brooks Fibre o is the thing Noisette will gobble up. It is 17% NSC but I've risk balanced giving it to her just to get her to eat. I don't have the breakdown of the 17%, but do you think it's ok to continue with the 2 lb per day or even increase it when adding in the soy hulls and flax? I don't think she'll eat ground flax without it being mixed in well. Do you think the Brooks Flax Appeal would be a good option for flax? It's stabilized and also contains soy hulls. 

Ive always been concerned with Noisette getting enough protein especially as she ages. I guess the additional soy hulls will accomplish this? What about adding alfalfa pellets too? I'm trying to also think of other things that would get her interested. She's done well on alfalfa cubes previously and also her second cut hay in her stall has more alfalfa in it. also re protein, would a hay around 20 % protein be too high? 

Im seeing reference to too much fat being bad for IR. I've always thought it'd be helpful for Noisette with her weight issues. Just wondering why it would be bad?

i will pick up one of those mineral mixes you suggested and try to attach my hay analysis. Having trouble from my phone.

sorry for all the questions and thanks again for your time!
Emma


Lorna Cane
 
Edited

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 03:14 am, Emma B wrote:
sorry for all the questions
Hi Emma,

Never be sorry. That's what we're all about ! 
I think we're all in trouble if we never have any more questions. :-)

Just wanted to butt in here to say I've never had a horse who doesn't like ground flax , although I know a few other horses on this forum who don't like it.

My horses also adore soy hull pellets . You may be surprised at how easy the switch over will be.
I prefer the soy hull pellets to beet pulp (although their profiles are virtually the same) because all you do with SHP is add water,and serve.No soak/rinse protocol.
 
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Emma B
 

Thanks Lorna :)

Noisette will eat some flax in her feed but I think she objects to it when she's more aware of its powdery texture ;)

im working on sourcing some soy hull pellets. My local feed store has roasted soy. Would that be suitable?

thanks

Emma


Lorna Cane
 
Edited

Hi Emma,

I'm not sure of that product.The only one I know of is roasted soy flakes. and if memory serves it is about 40% protein.
I wouldn't go near it.
Feed stores/mills  use soy beans for cattle feed,and more.But we want the soy HULL pellets.
Masterfeeds  makes the ones my feed store carries.This is not my feed store, but it's in the area and  it'll do:
http://www.wiltontack.com/product_info.php/soybean-hulls-p-39424

If you feed beet pulp or soy hull pellets the meals will be damp, so the ground flax shouldn't be an issue. It'll stick,and maybe she won't notice.

I wonder if this is helpful in finding a dealer near you:
https://masterfeeds.com/contact-us


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


 

Hi, Emma - questions are good!  None of us is born knowing how to manage an IR horse.

The reason for concern with high fat is that higher fat diets have been shown to exacerbate or actually cause IR in many species; in horses, an IR state lasting for about a week was induced in thoroughbred mares (the least IR breed on the face of the earth) by a single intravenous lipid administration. Anecdotally, as well, some PSSM horses that were being maintained on high fat, low carb diets then became IR. 

The reason we are concerned with what kind of fats is because the natural food of the horse, grass, has an omega-3 to omega-6 ratio of 4:1.  We don't know exactly how much we can push that ratio (ie, does 1:1 work?  2:1?), but it seems like a safe ratio to use until we get some information saying otherwise. Omega 6 fatty acids are necessary in the diet, but they tend favour the inflammatory pathways (promote the pathways that produce inflammatory compounds), and so we don't want to use too much of them - hence the recommendation to stay away from corn oil, most veggie oils, rice bran, sunflower seeds.

Roasted soy flakes sound to me like actual soybean meal. This can be used (with some caveats) as a protein supplement in some cases, but is too high in sugar and starch (not huge, but high enough), and too high in omega 6's for our guys as a rule.  You can see the average analysis at Equianalytical:  http://equi-analytical.com/interactive-common-feed-profile/ 

Some horses get footsore on alfalfa, but if Noisette is fine on it, then it is a good way to boost protein.  However, a hay with 20% protein might cause some issues. In particular, I would want the nitrate content of that hay checked (crude protein only measures nitrogen content, and high nitrate hays will show up as high crude protein hays).  If the hay is free of high nitrate levels, the adding a little bit will be a good way to increase the protein.  By the same token, alfalfa cubes or pellets, in moderate amounts, would be fine. (just have to make sure we balance for the high calcium).

Regarding the Brooks Flax Appeal, you could give her a cup a day; but it also has full-fatted soybeans in it, which again are high in omega 6, and the company hasn't given the amounts of flax, soy, or omega 3 or omega 6.  I certainly wouldn't feed her pounds of it, as suggested on the website;  http://www.brooksfeeds.com/pdf/products/Flax%20appeal%202015.pdf  

You could use just a small amount of the Fiber O as a taste tempter. I suspect the reason she gobbles it up is because it is high in starch!  I sure wouldn't be using 2 lobs or more of it.  What about trying some of the Brooks Firelite? I don't much like it having rice bran in there, but it is low in fat, and although I couldn't find ingredients or and actual NSC, the fact that it can be substituted 1 for 1 for hay suggests that it will be lower in ESC plus starch than the Fibre O. If she likes it, it will be much safer than the Fibre O.

Here is the short form:  Don't use the Fibre O except in very small amounts as a taste-tempter. Try the Fibrelite instead.

I wouldn't bother with the Flax Appeal; I would buy a small bag of ground flax from the grocery store first, and see if she will eat 1/2 a cup of it in her feed. An alternative is to use flax seed oil.

Yes to moderate amounts of alfalfa cubes (2 lbs or less).  Yes to ODTB cubes if you can get them. Yes to beet pulp and soy hull pellets. No to roasted soy.

Sorry about the steep learning curve, but keep asking questions, and soon you will be the Pro from Dover!




--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Lorna Cane
 

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 02:11 pm, Jaini Clougher wrote:
Roasted soy flakes sound to me like actual soybean meal.
Ok. I have to admit to having a bin of this stuff in my feed room. Busted.
I bought it last winter when my 45-year-old mule was not getting enough into his bod. A friend,whom I respect,brought an abused horse back from the brink,using this in her routine.And I was out of ideas.
So,I bought some,and used just a few sprinkles on top of Humphrey's mush.It helped.

BUT, I wrote on the outside of the bin  " 18% FAT", just to remind myself !!

They actually are flakes, or rather look like crushed beans. Some of the product almost looks like meal,but not as fine,and some beans missed the flaker and are whole.

They are delicious,I have to say that!!
But I can't imagine feeding it to a horse,any horse,as a feed.
 
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


 

Ha! Busted indeed!  However, if they worked as a taste-tempter, then good for you.  The fact that Humphrey is 45 (and looked pretty damn' good when I saw him last year) leads me to believe that you don't feed terrible things to your horses.  In fact, I know you don't!  Sometimes one has to bend the rules just a little with these very senior citizens to keep them eating.

--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Lorna Cane
 

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 04:21 pm, Jaini Clougher wrote:
Sometimes one has to bend the rules just a little with these very senior citizens to keep them eating.
Yes, and this is a good place to repeat, I think,  how a teeny, tiny amount of whatever it is, sprinkled on top of the food, can fool the pony into thinking it's really good - the whole thing, or at least more of it than he thought before.
I sometimes use rolled oats in the same way.I'm talking just several pieces.
Start with the smallest amount possible so there is somewhere to go if it doesn't work the first time.

Thanks for your kind words,Jaini. He's hoping you can come back some time.Soon.
 
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Dana Adams <chemindefer2004@...>
 

Hi Emma-
The same thing happened to me. I feel your pain- it's very frustrating. Pergolide can cause them to go off their feed when you raise the dosage.
I raised the pergolide dosage to 1.5 mg daily to help with the seasonal rise, which subsequently caused my horse go off his feed, apparently. He also developed ulcers and has lost a lot of weight and muscle tone. He's doing a little better now back on 1 mg pergolide daily, but I've had a heck of a time trying to get him to eat his grain again! You might want to try wetting down the hay or use hay cubes- that worked with my guy. Also, I feed him alfalfa, which is low in sugar and also has calcium which helps with tummy issues. My horse is not IR, so might want to make sure that's OK for your horse.
It's so difficult when they're older and decide they don't care for their grain anymore. Best of luck to you!
--
Dana and T
Littleton, CO, USA
Sept 2017


Emma B
 

Thanks everyone for your advice! Dana, I'm sorry to hear you experienced similar issues with your horse. It is indeed frustrating when theyvjist won't eat. I will try wetting hay a bit to increase intake too.

i may have finally found some soy hull pellets to try. Waiting to hear back from the feed store. In the meantime the ground flax is going over well :) I'm hoping to pick up some alfalfa pellets as well. 

i guess my brain block with not having high fat fat in the diet for weight gain for my girl is that I wonder how she'll get enough calories to put weight on. But is it because substituting for more digestible calories from more beet pulp and soy hulls will make the nutrients more available to her?
similarly, do you think having access to more higher quality hay would help with her weight? Would wetting/soaking the hay aid in digestibility(of course not soaking for too long)?

Thanks again,

Emma


 

Hi, Emma - the trick with IR and PPID horses is to get safe calories into them. Giving them feeds that can make their IR worse can sometimes backfire, and actually prevent weight gain (once they get beyond that initial IR stage of getting fat from just looking at food).  I do think more access to higher quality hay (as long as it is below 10% ESC plus starch) will help; as will convincing her to eat the beet pulp and soy hulls. How much of that second cut hay do you think she is getting overnight, in her stall?  If she is too thin, feeding a whole lot more of that hay that she is already keen to eat will help (as long as it is below 10% ESC plus starch).

Wetting hay can help with palatability for some horses, and make other horses refuse the hay entirely.  For older horses, wetting the hay can help with chewing.

I think, with Ms. Noisette, having lots of the second cut hay in her stall overnight, plus the rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp or soaked soy hull pellets available overnight (when she has nothing better to do than eat) might help. I'm glad she likes the flax!
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Emma B
 

Hi Jaini,

Noisette is only getting about two flakes of the second cut overnight in her stall, and right now she is only in from about 9 pm til 6 am. I would like her to get more, but that's about as much as I can get the barn owner to give her at the moment :/  She is definitely happier to eat overnight in her stall, as she almost always finishes her dinner grain, but leaves breakfast as she's antsy to get outside.  I'm going to keep trying to get more hay in her stall overnight, as well as increase her beet pulp etc. Also if she was in longer overnight, I think she'd be more open to eating more. It is so hard being in a boarding situation. 

Emma


Emma B
 

One more question - do you see value in continuing with the chromium picolinate? 

Thanks,

Emma


Dana Adams <chemindefer2004@...>
 

Emma-
I don't know if this will be "PC" or not, but I feed him Purina Ultium, which has Amplify fat supplement in it and beet pulp. It's also low sugar and lower starch, but high in fat. I mix that with a bit of Nutrena SafeChoice Special Care, which is low starch and sugar with moderate fat levels. The recommendation I received from my vet was to give as much protein and fat as possible with these thin oldies. That is what they need and can metabolize.
I noticed you're in Canada, so my recommendations might be mute! Not sure if they sell Purina and Nutrena brands up there. Hang in there- they get so persnickety when they're older and my vet also said that sometimes, they really do just get "tired of eating"!
I would also add alfalfa if you can safely do so with her IR. That has made a world of difference in my old guy and he likes it.
Happy Holidays!
--
Dana and T
Littleton, CO, USA
Sept 2017


 

Hi, Dana - thanks for the info. It is not whether it is PC or not, it depends on what the horse needs. T is a TB, and so is unlikely to be IR (athough I didn't see any insulin and glucose numbers in the case history), so these foods are just fine for him, and for any generic oldies who are *not* IR.  The Purina Ultium and the Nutrena "Safe Choice" (which is anything but safe for IR horses) could potentially blow the feet off of Noisette, and would certainly do so for my IR horses, no matter how old they are. (I have yet to find anything in the Purina line that is IR suitable. The old caveat applies: a feed companies definition of "low sugar and starch" or "reduced sugar and starch" often means "low" or "reduced" compared to sweet feed.)   Oldies do generally need more digestible protein; whether or not they need fat is debatable.

The bottom line is to have a good diagnosis - if your horse is IR, then it needs safe calories, not high fat or higher sugar and starch feeds.

Happy holidays, and hugs to T!
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


 

Hi, Emma - chromium is only useful if your hay is deficient in it, and most hays have abundant chromium unless they are grown on very alkaline soil. So, if your hay comes from fairly normal soil (and I think most of the Ottawa Valley falls into that category), then you don't really need the chromium. I had a try at finding a soil pH map of Canada, but got frustrated with the govt site!

--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy