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locked Yayo very sore after the trim

Maria Duran
 

I just arrived home and I am very sad and worried, the farrier-trimmer has trimmed and shoed his front hooves (he is shoed in the fronts and barefoot in the hinds). 

He always removes the sole excess because he says it is not a good thing to leave it there even after hearing my complains abput that, but today he has been too aggressive in my opinion. It is true that his hooves are much better aligned as his HPA was veeery broken back but every time he trims him, Yayo remains sore for some time what I don't believe it is correct.

He says soreness is needed and normal because we are aligning his hooves and the pain can come from arthrosis. I bet my left hand that this is not the case.

Today Yayo is very sore in both front hooves more the right than the left, he tries to alleviate the pain by lifting the right front hoof but because the left one is also sore, he begins to dance in the same place as if he was stepping on grapes. He walks with his head almost ground level and with his upper lip extended showing pain.

He has also bounding pulses in both front hooves. 

My questions are:

- Is it possible that bounding pulses can appear right after a bad trim?

- What would be causing the bounding pulses in this scenario? Is the sole corium being more compressed or what else?

- Given that he has laminitis and the white line is stretched, very thin soles and his insulin is still not controlled at 34, is he at more risk of foundering due to this aggressive trim or the trim can't make the horse founder just by removing too much sole?

Please remember that I am not allowed to post pics of this horse, so I apologize in advance.

Thank you very much for your help.
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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Maria,

We really can't make any intelligent or helpful comments without photos and radiographs. I don't even see how you can improve a negative HPA with aggressive trimming but I might be misunderstanding what you are saying.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale until January 31, 2020
EC Owner 2001

Maxine McArthur
 

Maria, can you sketch what his angles and trim looks like? Would that be acceptable do you think, as it's not an actual photo?
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Maria Duran
 

Dr. Kellon and Maxine, 

Thank you for the reply. Dr. Kellon, I say the HPA has improved because before this farrier worked on Yayo's hooves they had very underun heels and loooong toes. Just by shortening the toe in every trim the alignment has improved a lot but the problem with this farrier is that he removes the soles because he says it is false sole but the issue is that in my opinion Yayo needs that extra false sole. He removes too much and Yayo gets sore.

I was hoping to get my questions answered as general questions knowing that the sole has heen trimmed, not related exclusively to Yayo's case.
Could you please read them as general questions for any horse that has had too much sole removed please? It would really be of help for me.

I would like to know if the bounding pulses can occur 2 hours after the trim has been made and what could be causing it. If a bounding pulse occurs because the veins are at some extent suffering blood compression, what's the reason for this compression after a hoof being trimmed? Can thinning the soles be a trigger by compressing the sole corium? 

If you still believe you can't answer this, I understand it.

Thank you very much.

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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Maria

Not Dr Kellon, but IME, poor alignment will increase pulses. The hoof capsule and bones are not as they should be.

In general never remove sole.


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Maria Duran
 

Thank you Nancy, the thing is that he has always had a bad alignment so I relate this to his aggressive trim in the sole. I always tell him not to touch his soles but he doesn't listen to me.

Yesterday I was so disgusted that I believe he will avoid trimming the soles next time but I don't really know. I talked to him very seriously. I hope I can do something regarding this issue.

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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Aggressively backing up the toe can improve the angle of the hoof wall at the toe instantly but it doesn't do anything to change the position of the bones within the capsule. Only moving the heels back and getting more heel height can do that.

"False" sole isn't a very helpful term and has no meaning. The layers of dead sole act like callus to protect the nerves and vascular supply of the solar corium and the thin layer of sensitive sole on top of it. If that is thinned excessively it could result in pain and possibly inflammation/bruising. However, you could also get increased pulses simply from changing the mechanics of the hoof and causing leaks in abscess collections. He could also be lame because the trim is shifting his weightbearing back more onto weak structures in the back of the foot.

There are millions of shod horses out there with distal descend, poor sole depth, etc that routinely have their dead sole build up removed when they are shod but they don't become lame.
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Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale until January 31, 2020
EC Owner 2001

 

Hi Maria,  I have two thoughts, for now.  

I don’t know under what circumstances the farrier was switched but might facilitating communication between the two help?
We've been working with a pony with ‘a sole that must not be touched’ for years.  I know what a struggle that is!  Three shoeings ago, he was changed to a shoe which is beveled all the way around.  Handy is gaining heel and sole.  And he’s extremely comfortable. His happens to be egg bar as he seems to like that support.  Here is an example of the shoe.  I know you don’t own the horse but I would think a good farrier could make something similar in steel and the owner might be convinced to try it.  Maybe, if he gets more invested in the project, he will begin to work with you.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

Maria Duran
 

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 04:44 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Aggressively backing up the toe can improve the angle of the hoof wall at the toe instantly but it doesn't do anything to change the position of the bones within the capsule. Only moving the heels back and getting more heel height can do that.
Because he had long toes, it is my observation that removing the lever made him able to step more vertically but I might be perfectly wrong. His heels have inproved in height a tiny bit too IMO.
"False" sole isn't a very helpful term and has no meaning.
Yes, it is how is always called here.

The layers of dead sole act like callus to protect the nerves and vascular supply of the solar corium and the thin layer of sensitive sole on top of it. If that is thinned excessively it could result in pain and possibly inflammation/bruising. However, you could also get increased pulses simply from changing the mechanics of the hoof and causing leaks in abscess collections. He could also be lame because the trim is shifting his weightbearing back more onto weak structures in the back of the foot.
Thank you very much Dr. Kellon, this answers my question.

There are millions of shod horses out there with distal descend, poor sole depth, etc that routinely have their dead sole build up removed when they are shod but they don't become lame.
Something happened yesterday because before the trim Yayo was fine and when I arrived he had already shod his right front hoove and Yayo was lifting it to avoid pressure. I became aware of Yayo not feeling well from the first second. I have asked for a video of Yayo today to see how he is feeling and I can see that those hooves are too small for his size. He looks like a giant wearing baby shoes.

Thank you very much Dr. Kellon for your help and thanks Nancy and Maxine.

 
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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Another possibility is that he was nailed through sensitive tissue. The shoe itself could be applying pressure to the sole if it is too small.

Many possibilities but impossible to answer without photos and films.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale until January 31, 2020
EC Owner 2001

Maria Duran
 

Hi Martha,

Thanks a lot for thinking about us!!!

That shoe looks much better than the one he is wearing now which is a normal shoe, but the farrier recycles the old shoe because it has the bevel in the toe area. I will show him this one.

The farrier is a very good person, but I don´t agree with what he does to be honest. Regarding his old farrier talking with the new one, better not because the old one is who left Yayo with those long toes and a broken back HPA for 7 years. The owner is happy with whatever I pay for so unless it is something very weird, she will agree.

Thank you, I will suggest this for Yayo.

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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Maria Duran
 

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 05:21 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Another possibility is that he was nailed through sensitive tissue. The shoe itself could be applying pressure to the sole if it is too small.
I don´t believe it is a nail because his two front hooves are causing pain to him but definitely the shoe applying pressure to the sole is a very likely possibility. Moreover, I believe that´s the cause. 

Many possibilities but impossible to answer without photos and films.
Yes, I am sorry Dr. Kellon. Anyway you have helped a lot!

 
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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

There is something disturbingly wrong when a farrier states that a horse being routinely sore after every trim is necessary, expected and normal. That is total horse hockey. While rehabbing hooves with pathologies may entail some transient discomfort at times as unused and/or poorly developed structures are asked to engage, this is a by-product that you should look to mitigate, not create. It is not a given.

I really hate the term "false sole" as it implies that the material on the bottom of the foot is some type of imposter that needs to be immediately unmasked and ejected. Instead, it is a protective layer of varying thickness that every horse builds up as part of the natural development of the bottom of the foot. While it may become too profuse in some instances - esp. in smaller feet that are left to grow too long and don't see enough wear; individuals whose feet are left overly long - it will generally maintain at the appropriate depth for each individual with little-to-no attention.

Depending on how thin his soles actually are, the sole that is being trimmed away could be reaching or even invading the live sole - which would be very painful. If this is the case, bruising is highly likely to show up. Even if it isn't invading live sole, it is removing the calloused layer of sole that protects the immature, live sole and is providing depth that is critically needed as a support. If the horse is laminitic, the continual thinning of the soles could possibly result in the coffin bone penetrating the sole as there just isn't enough material between the ground and the bony column to support the weight of the horse (I've seen this happen).

Increased pulses are not diagnostic of anything as a stand alone symptom as many things - good, bad and indifferent - can be the cause: standing in the sun vs. shade; exercise; laminitis; changing the hoof mechanics, both positively and negatively; bruising/inflammation from some insult are some examples.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Maria Duran
 

Hi Lavinia,

Can't thank you enough for your words. They do not only throw light to my concerns but speak in a rational, heart touching way that gives me strength to keep deffending my posture against what is so wrong and commonly stated by some farriers and barefoot trimmers.

It is hard to spend time, frustration, love, money and hope to improve the welfare of a horse and see how all goes through out the window in a second because of a bad trim. I know this happens to many people here so I can only say thank you for your time to encourage us and thank you to all people in this group.

I miss Jaini, not because of the wonderful help she always provides us but because she has her own place in my heart after all the advice given to us. You are all amazing people.

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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Tanna
 

Maria, would you be able to email photos of Yayo's hooves to someone else to post? 

I am so with Lavinia. It seems ridiculous to me that your farrier thinks this is the thing to do especially when the horse has become sore! Trust your gut and please continue to speak out on Yayo's behalf. 


--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 

Maria Duran
 

Hi Tanna, 

Thank you for your concern, it is very much appreciated. I believe I wouldn´t be comfortable doing so because I feel I break his owner´s trust and I have conquered a lot with him so I don´t want to put him at risk.

He is still sore but slowly getting better. I performed a bloodwork for him on tuesday, this is 3 days after the trim while he was sore and his ACTH shows he was in pain. In january 18th his ACTH was 31 pg/ml and now in february 11th his ACTH is 56.8 pg/ml, glucose 98 mg /100ml and insulin 19.80 uIU/ml.

The good news is that his is finally almost at 5 BSC what he has never been on, his topline and rump are much much much better! 

I am already looking for a different trimmer and will talk again with his former one. I he doesn´t follow my guidance (right or wrong), I will change trimmer. I pay, I chose.

Thanks a lot Tanna!


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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Nancy C
 
Edited

I believe I wouldn´t be comfortable doing so because I feel I break his owner´s trust and I have conquered a lot with him so I don´t want to put him at risk.
Good instincts Maria.

Just a reminder to all, as stated in the ECIR Group Terms of Use, you need to be the owner or have permission to post anything about a horse.

As it states on our ECIR Group home page:

PLEASE READ THE ECIR GROUP TERMS OF USE and PRIVACY POLICIES.  By joining this group, using ecirhorse.org or other ECIR Groups products, you agree to the terms and conditions of these policies.

Everyone's heart is in the right place, wanting to help horses. Just need permission to do so, if you are not the owner. 

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Maria Duran
 

Thank you Nancy, it was my heart who was talking so a good reminder that also ECIR rules must be respected.

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María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
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Nancy C
 
Edited

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the structure of the organization arises from the wish and requirements to protect privacy while giving the best possible recommendations in a public forum.

Bottom line is, if you are going to share details about a horse you do not own, even if you are a caregiver, you need to have permission.

Thanks very much to all of you for your help in this regard.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 12:11 PM, Nancy C wrote:
Bottom line is, if you are going to share details about a horse you do not own, even if you are a caregiver, you need to have permission.
Just to add a little bit here, when you post ECIR assumes you have permission. If you don't, not using the horse's or owner's name might not be enough to hide the identity. If you post enough details it could be easy for someone who knows you and the animals you work with it to figure out.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001