Date
1 - 20 of 22
New X-Rays New Trim New Bloodwork
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Jeanne Q
Hi Everyone,
I have posted new x-rays. I am concerned that the RF looks no better(maybe even worse) since last x-rays. There were 3 trims done in between. Shouldn't I be able to see some progress? I have also posted some pics of the RF post trim done on the same day as the latest x-rays. Lavinia I showed my farrier the mark ups and he was concerned about support for P3. I told him to trim as much as he was comfortable with. You will see the result. He is coming back in 2 weeks. Glory's comfort level has improved slightly since the trim. Which is good considering the coronary abscess! The coronary abscess is draining profusely at this point. The heel abscess seems to be done draining and is healing. The sole abscess has slowed to almost nothing. Is there anything else I can be doing for this RF? She is still in so much pain and I just want her to get some relief. No change much on the LF either. Any ideas how I might pad this differently for more comfort while the RF heals? She is in Cloud boots with a flat pad on both fronts. I also posted new ACTH/IR bloodwork. I am very happy to say all looks well within range! Thank you all so much! -- Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Jeanne,
Glad to hear Glory has a least gotten a bit more comfortable with some of the (relatively) minor improvements in the trim. Yes, you should be able to see some progress by now if the trims were actually realigning the hoof capsule to the position of the bony column shown in the radiographs. The good part is that there does seem to be a bit of additional sole depth on the RF so that did improve. Do you know if the RF heels were lowered after the rads were done? It appears that the toe was bought back to about where the blue line at 6 0'clock on the toe was drawn. Based on the rads, that's nowhere near enough, unfortunately. And by leaving all the adjacent areas still protruding instead of being brought inward proportionally, they are still exerting pressure on the severely weakened laminar connections. Agree with you that LF has definitely had zero improvement on any parameter :( Hinds also need to have the toes pulled way back but they at least have a lot of excess foot to work with to get things corrected. Is there any way you could get a picture of the RF lateral with the hoof on the ground, even if she can't really stand on it fully? Support of P3 is going to come by getting the trim to be physiologically correct, then by padding her so that support is concentrated on the heel/sole/frog and up into the collateral grooves, with the walls being pulled completely out of weight bearing, esp. the lateral one on the RF. The padding under the front half of the feet needs to be slightly softer and more forgiving so it provides protection rather than serves in a support capacity. MAke sure there are exaggerated bevels added to the treads on the boots from 9- 3 and across the heels as well: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/album?id=45323 Blood work definitely looks a lot better - YAY! -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR |
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Jeanne Q
After that last duel visit with vet and farrier, neither is on board with this method, I feel quite beat up. I was feeling pretty good about how much toe he actually did take off. He wont touch the sides around the toe as he feels that it threatens the integrity of the hoof and support for P3. At this point, I feel like I better find a good rasp to purchase and try and do this myself. The vet, who is not my normal vet, was actually talking about law suits and cruelty. Onward..... Yes some heel was taken off after the rads. On the hinds the toes were trimmed.
I will get a RF lateral pic done tomorrow when I poultice. So I should literally bevel the edges off the boots like in the pictures? Best way to do that? Thanks!! -- Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Jeanne,
Just want to confirm these last blood tests were not taken fasting. Correct? The party line is still that Anaplasma and Lyme/Borrelia do not cause laminitis. So much for that idea. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Jeanne Q
--Yes Eleanor. The blood tests were non-fasting. Thanks for the Lyme update too. I still wonder if the presence of the Lyme in her helped cause other system failures. The Lyme came first in the timeline of Glory's problems. Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Jeanne, could you look for a barefoot trimmer? Farriers often seem to have this mindset that a horse's hooves must be supported by the hoof wall, and not the sole, frog, bars etc. I have no idea how they reconcile this with wild horse hooves where it's clear the walls are no more important than the rest of the bottom of the hoof. Barefoot trimmers seem to understand better how the hoof is supposed to function. Its pretty hard to go against the advice of a vet and farrier if they are both of the same mindset, would be nice if you could find someone there to support you, especially if they have experience with these types of situations and can do the trimming.
If you're looking for a good rasp I recommend Bellota Top Sharp. There are other good ones, a farrier supply store can recommend them too. Don't buy a cheap rasp (or knives) from the local feed store....been there, done that...it was very inferior to the Bellota I bought from a farrier store. I also noticed that sideways movement of the rasp bothered my horse when his lamellar connection was poor, and he had trouble lifting his feet and using a hoof stand for rasping. We had some frustrating, tear-filled trims in the early days. Nippers made a huge difference, I only wished I had bought them sooner. I know they are not necessary and we should be able to do it all with a rasp...but they helped me a lot in the days when I had a sore horse and lots of material to remove. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Jeanne Q
-- Kirsten, thank you for your thoughts! I started looking for a barefoot trimmer today. I hope my farrier understands. He has been with me through 20+ years of ups and downs and has become a friend. He just cant wrap his head around doing the opposite of what he has been taught and what he has been doing for 30 years. I get it. The vet, fortunately, is not my regular vet. He was just out to do the rads. My long time vet is helping in any way he can. I think he appreciates my efforts and little Glory's extraordinary strength. Thanks for the info on the rasp. Im thinking this would be a good purchase, although Im not sure Im going be strong enough to use it well. :) I was also going to order Pete Ramey's dvds. I know I still have a long road ahead with Glory and I want to be better educated. Thanks again for your time!! Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Pam.palominopony@...
Hi Jeanne!
The farrier I was using for my IR pony was referred to me by my vet. I will spare you the details, but I ended up finding a barefoot trimmer to trim my pony. The first time he came out he said my pony’s hooves were 3 times too big. We had been dealing with thrush for 18 months. We got a game plan together and after a few months he showed me how to trim so that I could trim every 3 weeks and he would trim every 3 weeks. That way he could keep an eye on what I was doing and my pony could get trimmed as often as she needed. We were able to get her sound again after much work. The day my daughter rode her again made all of the work worth it. So if you have to pick up the rasp then so be it. The most valuable thing I learned from this group is that I am my horse’s advocate and that means that I have to seek out the answers that work for us. This groups track record is nothing short of amazing. Hang in there and do what your instincts tell you to do. You won’t be sorry. Pam in Va 12/10 Buttercup IR and Frosty PPID both over the bridge Story IR and Roscoe PPID. |
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Cindy Q
Hi Jeanne
You will probably find it easier to start with the fine (file) side of the rasp first. Also, for rasping or even if you are filing, if you use strength rasping/ push it in hard, it actually becomes harder and is the wrong way to do it as your rasp will stutter/chatter more (like get stuck on many speed bumps). What helps is a light hand to guide the rasp as it glides in a long stroke. Bellota top sharp is popular among professional trimmers. In case you need more options, Heller Legends are popular also. I use Heller Excel Original but that may suit my climate/humidity more. For a beginner, also have a look at the Bellota Mini (sold on Amazon and currently about 27 USD with free shipping and handle included) - I haven't used it but I've seen it in person and the size is quite handy for one handed work and will be light. However, if you have only one rasp and need to do more, probably a full sized rasp is more effective/efficient once you get used to using it. Cheap pair of electrician/workman/gardening gloves work well - they usually have nitrile or a rubber like coating over the front side. Even if you find a good trimmer (and I hope you do), this is something useful to start learning for in-between touchups. Pete's dvds are good. -- Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Glow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9798 |
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Jeanne Q
Thanks Pam for your encouraging words! Much needed in the face of self doubt. My instincts are strong and I have no intention on giving up on my tough girl until she tells me otherwise.
Cindy your practical information helps loads! Thank you! I was just reading your original posts last night. Coincidentally, I call my Glory, Glo and she looks something like your Glow. :) -- Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Bobbie Day
Hello
I will just say I ordered the Cody James rasps in two lengths, they’re amazing. -- Bobbie and Desi Utah, Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821 |
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Joanne Jordan
If you find as I did, that the regular rasps are too difficult to handle, check out the radius rasps from evohoofcare.com. These fit in the palm of your hand and are rounded so they easily conform to the hoof. I absolutely love mine.
-- Joanne Jordan in Olympia, WA 2019 Gusto case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joanne%20and%20Gusto Gusto photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=237686 |
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
Radial rasps can be useful to make quick fixes but for more involved work, I find they just aren't designed for that purpose and would take you forever.
-- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR |
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
You can rent Pete's (and many other equine-centric) DVDs from:
http://www.giddyupflix.com/ -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR |
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Another tip: trim when the hooves are wet, like after a big rain if the horse has been walking around in puddles (or snow), or after doing a long hoof soak. It's like the difference between rasping concrete and rasping/grating cheese (almost!).
I just love how Pam's trimmer showed her what to do between trims!! -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Jeanne Q
--Wow! Thanks everyone! You are a wealth of knowledge and so much help! Lavinia, I have posted lateral and dorsal pics of a 3 legged horse. I will try to get the left front tomorrow. She was done cooperating. Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Cindy Q
Hi Jeanne
Also your earlier question about bevelling boots. I'm not sure what you have but I recently bevelled cloud boots with a new rasp. I thought it would take a lot of effort but it was easier than doing a hoof even. Light hand guiding. No physical strength required really. A lot of people also use a angle grinder. In fact with your new rasp do the boot first as when it's brand new it's almost too sharp and more prone to stutter unless your technique is better. Similar to bevel gloves etc as material is the same. Also remember you can add a stronger/bigger bevel on but you can't put back lost material. So check that it's balanced /even as you go (unless you mean to purposely make it stronger on one side but you should not worry about that starting out). -- Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Glow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9798 |
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Jeanne Q
-- Thanks Cindy! I beveled Glory's Clouds today with a rasp. I realized I needed to be careful to make it balanced so all should be good. Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Hi Jeanne,
I've added some mark-ups to Glory's album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0 As we've already discussed, the toes need to come back all around. There is enough sole depth on every foot except the RF. RF needs to have the heels lowered from mid-frog back to address the entire leg buckling forward. LF has no excess heel height. Both hinds need to lose more height in the front half of the foot relative to the back half. The abscessing thru the RF coronary band has caused a secondary issue as it is likely that wall has detached along that entire line, so all upward pressure along that fissure needs to be removed. Setting up boots and pads that will load her soles, frogs, bars and frogs instead of the walls will provide support to the bony column while allowing the wall to regrow from the top down. The hinds also have quite a bit of excess growth all around so can be trimmed as needed to align the hoof capsule with the position of the bones within. RF lateral rad: Blue lies are the trim lines, blue Xs are the extra material that needs to be removed. Red line is the area that should be left completely alone along that entire length/width across the bottom of the foot. Green line follows the angle of the newest growth toward the ground and runs almost parallel to the angle of the coffin bone. This isn't a trim line - just a visual marker. Address this incrementally as it grows down toward the ground rather than thinning it all off at once. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, yellow line #2 points to the extensor process. These should overlap, or at least be very close together. The distance between them denotes the amount of sinking. RF dorsal: The gold line follows one of the growth rings. Note the upward bulge on either side of the center. These bulges line up with the squared off points that remained after the toe was brought back. They indicate areas that are receiving a lot more pressure than those adjacent to them. Need to relieve that excess pressure by bringing those ares inward proportionally to the rest of the foot. Example DP 60: This rad is shot looking downward at the foot from the front. The yellow line is about what the trim on Glory's RF looks like at this time, with the toe cut straight across and the excess quarters flaring out into corners. The blue line is what the trim should look like - note how it runs parallel to the position of the coffin bone all the way around so that all weight bearing is distributed evenly rather than crating pressure points. RF sole: Blue line is the same as the one on the previous DP 60 view, aligning the hoof capsule so that is is proportional all the way around. Then bevel all the walls out of weight bearing as all the laminar connections are damaged so need to be relieved of pressure. LF lateral radiograph: Pink line follows the bony column alignment and continues to the ground at the point where the front of the foot should end at ground level. Everything ahead of this point should not touch the ground. Green line again follows the angle of the new growth coming in beneath the coronary band and it runs parallel to the pink line. Its a visual only, not a trim line. Blue lines are the trim lines. Yellow lines again show the amount of sinking. Again, once the toes are brought back and the rest of the foot brought inward proportionally, finish off by beveling the walls out of ground contact. RH lateral radiograph: Blue are the trim lines. Green again is visual. Lots of excess toe length. The entire hoof has extra overall vertical height so can be lowered but the front half needs more removed than the back half. Use the collateral groove depths to determine how much can come off: http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html http://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm http://www.hoofrehab.com/Coronet.html RH lateral: Blue corresponds to the blue lines on the rad. LH lateral radiograph: Same general idea as the RH. Make sure any boots she wears are thickly padded so that the pads can conform to the bottom of her feet to provide uniform support across the soles, frogs, bars and heels. You can provide support to the RF with a taped on pad until the drainage stops and the coronary band heals. -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR |
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Jeanne Q
--Lavinia you are a life saver! Seriously! When trimming the toe off the RF how careful do we need to be? I read somewhere that the laminar wedge in a traumatized hoof (like Glory) can be very soft. Is this something I should be concerned about. The example rad you added will help my farrier to see whats happening. I honestly cant thank you enough for your knowledge and time. Thank you. Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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