Target's trim


KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

Can anyone help with Target's trim. I have two trimmers who are going to work together to try to help her. They both don't know how to proceed. From the recent x eays it looks like the realigning trim needs work. The coffin bone is very close to the sole( which is VERY thin). The trimmers think the heel needs to be taken down, but when that happens, Target is so sore she won't walk for about 3 weeks, even in her boots with thick felt pads. I have tried cutting the frog portion out of the pads, but that doesn't seem to help. When I take the boots off and look at the pad it has the frog part puffed up and the very back of the heels on both sides of the pad really deeply indented. Also the toes area of the pad is deeply grooved, which seems to me she is putting most of her weight on the toe. My one trimmer says the coffin bone is de mineralizing and there is no sence continuing to trim Target, as the cone won't get any better and we should be ready to put her down. She is not going to keep coming and trimming when there is no hope. I don't think I want someone with that attitude working on my horse. Is there any help out there, so I can explain to the trimmers what needs to be done? Thanks
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Kathie

I don't have enough info from your pictures and the trim has changed from the rads to help with exact trim recommendations for Target, but i wanted to share my experience with Beau who's coffin bones looked very similar to Target's and continued to deteriorate as time went on and the insulin was not controlled.

Beau passed in 2016. I wish he could have benefited from Invokana, but we were able to keep him comfortable up until the last year. You can see his rads from 2016 here  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1853

Here's his case history  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Beau

We were able to keep him comfortable for many years, even working, because we were ruthless in our focus on his trim.  My farrier was committed to doing this. I developed the ability to recognize when Beau needed help in between visits -- even just a rasp or two on his heels every day or so, would make a big difference. As Dr Bowker says, pulses can be lowered immediately with the right position of the CB within the capsule. IOW...when your trim is going in the right direction you can see better pulses. And better movement.

What is happening with the coffin bone is very much like a fracture.  It is painful. You can make her more comfortable but it takes dedication and certainly resistance to even trying from a farrier or trimmer would IMO disqualify them from touching my horses.

If I had to start where you are now, I would continue looking for a trimmer who is willing to dive all in to help her and make sure she is better when the trim is done. You can't do that kind of work, even every two weeks, IMO.Four or six week trims get you nowhere.  It needs to be touched up often.  You know that, I bet.

I think we have probably been over all the reasonable places to look for a trimmer before, so I won't go there yet again.  Any online help to guide trimmers will require good digital photographs, taken often.  It's not just ECIR that requires them but any online trimmer help.

Sorry I can't offer more magic.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 23 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Judy and Bugsy
 

Hi Kathie,

Have you had mark-ups done on Target's hoof pictures to help guide the trimmers?
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

I've tried to get mark ups, but I guess my photos are not good.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Kathie,

Have you had your first set of free mark-ups yet?  You do need to ask specifically for them, and do your best to follow the photo guidelines at the following link:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/How-to-Get-Trim-Evaluations

If you have had your free markups done already, you can pay for any subsequent ones, again by specifically requesting them on this forum.  I know Lavinia charges MUCH less than some other online trimmers do, so it is very reasonable for her time and knowledge, especially as her markups are incredibly detailed.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Kathie,

Did you read all of Lavinia's post to you on April 4th?

I didn't see a request for markups, but here is the post number,and the last part of her message in that post.

Message 248449

"Trim was done on March 20 (based on the dates in the photos) so you don't need another trim until 4 weeks later. Trim will need to maintain the toe length (at ground level) and breakover where they are now - don't allow it to creep forward again. Need to add bevels to the very backs of the heels but don't lower them or the HPA will become worse. Trim only loose tags off the frogs while allowing them to callous over properly. The stretched tip of the frog will begin to dangle at some point - then you can trim it off. Have a read on Pete Ramey's site for some more in-depth information on what you are looking to accomplish:"

http://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html
http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html
http://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html


Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


LJ Friedman
 

I know nothing about trims, made something like Magic Cushion help?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Cindy Q
 

Suggestion, get your trimmer to come and help take a full set of updated pictures. Pay her for the visit and help. Upload those pictures. Then contact Lavinia for full markups for a paid consult.

Also Lorna did a helpful thing to hunt down Lavinia's last advice to you: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/248449
Lavinia mentioned that trimmer did a good job. Not sure what happened to her but where possible I would get her to help with the photos and the trim again. It just makes sense.

Personally I would NOT cut out the frog part of the pads. The frog part being puffed out shows that the frog did not get much contact with pad. By cutting out that part of the pad, you have the frog more suspended and up in the air than before. I would try a thin triangle glued on to the main pad where the frog would be even (I say thin so you don't over load the frog) - basically need to observe how your horse responds and then you can remove it, keep it, increase it depending on what he likes best. 

Good luck.

--
Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

My trimmer is the one who took the photos right after she trimmed. She is coming for another horse today so maybe she would do another set of photos. She is moving next month so I have another trimmer coming with her to see what should be done. I worry about her as she has said that in her opinion Target should be put down as there is nothing that will help her now. I don't know how I would be able to pay for mark ups as I am in Canada and don't do any money stuff on the computer. Thanks for the suggestions. I have tried different pads, lower at the heel, taller at the heel, extra at the rim as tho she had some wall to stand on and not just her sole. Different thickness pads, different material etc., nothing seems to make any difference to her soreness. She is sore in and out of the boots. Banimine seems to help her comfort and she will walk a bit on her own, but I worry about giving that every day. I have ice vibe boots for her, a back on track sheet and polos, emu oil for the coronet band and heel bulb. The bottom of the foot is right flat and the frog is even with the sole. At the very tip it just runs right into the sole. There are no collateral grooves depth to measure, so I am assuming there is still very little sole too? The whole bottom of the foot is hard, even the frog feels like hoof material. I'm not sure if I should try to soften the frog or not. Very worried for Target, she is only 19 and I have owned her since she was 10 months old, she is the sweetest horse, everyone loves her.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Lorna Cane
 

Kathie ,  I wish I had some answers for you, but I just know enough to be dangerous.

I can, though, tell you what I have done when needing to get money to the US, and that is with a money order. Check with your bank or  credit union.
Easy peasy.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Kathy,

It might be a good idea to order boots meant for sore hooves and rehab, like the Easy Boot Clouds.  It sounds like Target needs lots of extra thick padding and those pads will not fit into Easy Boot Gloves.  She is going to be a long-term rehab case so the Clouds are going to be a good investment for her.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Sandra Draibye
 

Hey Kathie,

I can feel your anxiety- so hard to see our kids in pain.  I totally agree with the ECIR folks that the trim is everything - and I also like the soft ride boots for comfort.  So not to interfere with any advice you are getting here -  I am only speaking up because I noticed you are on the Island and you seem to be looking for different options around here.  Dr. Bettina Bobsien out of Cedar - so not too far from you - is having great success with using wooden clogs to get horses comfortable - because they can actually carve out the wood so it doesn't touch the sore portion and the horse gets to choose the angle he puts his foot - so the wear patterns on the wood can be very instructive.  They also seem to promote more rapid sole growth.  My guy was in them for two trims after he abscessed - and he really liked them - he was totally comfortable from the moment they were put on.  They trim to x-rays and I really like the farrier she uses.  I am pretty certain that even though ECIR prefers boots for a lot of good reasons,  I have seen Dr. Kellon mention clogs for use in some circumstances so I do not think I am suggesting anything contraversial.
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Sandra,

Thanks for the vet suggestion and perhaps you can share the farrier suggestion for both Pat and Kathie as they've both been using Rachel for a while.  As far as the clogs, the main thing is that they need to be attached to a hoof that's been properly trimmed and as we all know, getting that part of the equation right can be very difficult.



Lorna Cane
 

I looked in our archives, to remind myself of Dr. Kellon's thoughts on clogs.
Found this.....

 Message 230259
Dr. Kellon said :

"The Soft Ride rockers are similar to a Steward clog or banana shoe. They can increase comfort and encourage sole growth and more even wall growth **ONLY** if the trim and application guidelines are followed to the letter.

http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_wooden_shoe_laminitis.htm

Unfortunately, you can't automatically assume that whoever is putting them on knows how to do that. From what I've seen, most don't. The hoof has to be trimmed guided by current radiographs - better yet by real time radiographs as they are being trimmed."

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Sandra Draibye
 

Ok.  I did try the soft ride rocker option.  I really didn't want to leave the soft ride boots that I knew Finian was comfortable in so I pushed to try this before going to the wooden clogs.  I love the soft ride people and their boots,  but the rockers were awful.  They add a lot of height and instability and I didn't even wait for the farrier to show up to take them off when I saw how much discomfort Finian was in the following morning.   The clogs that Bettina uses are nothing like that.  My farrier actually planed them while they were on his feet to ensure they were flush with his feet before the casting material was put on.  They did x-rays prior to the trim, after the trim, and after the clogs were put on.  I really fought doing this - and I have to admit that I was wrong.  I think Finian would have been fine with the correct trim in his soft rides - but I do think the clogs sped things up and he was galloping around without my having to worry about him flipping a boot off and damaging his hoof.  Having said all that if someone wants to try the soft rocker option - I hesitated to give them to my farrier to use with other horses because I thought they were so awful - but if I can figure out where I put them, with the proviso that I would never recommend them, I am happy to give them away.
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018


Sandra Draibye
 

For sure I know that I had 3 vets and a surgeon watching to ensure that my horse's hooves were trimmed in accordance with the x-rays.  What I do not know at this point is whether the mainstream views on proper trimming and ECIR views on proper trimming coincide.    I have been trying to educate myself by reading Lavinia's trim advice which is why I noticed the post about Target, and my farrier has agreed to look at Pete Ramey's dvd and book to see if there is information in there that traditional farriers have not  yet acquired.  All vets and surgeons understood the importance of having the toe backed up.  My horse has no rotation in his latest x-rays.

Having said all of that, I brought my farrier to Cedar - and there is certainly nothing stopping Rachel from being the one doing the trim.  I found Bettina's farrier helpful - both because he and my farrier have known each other a long time - but also because he has significant experience with the clogs.  

However,  Pete Ramey has communicated to me that he regularly rehabilitates horses with 20 degrees or more of rotation, and the cases he has trouble with are those with extensive damage to P3 (and of course where diet is not addressed) -  he indicated that it seems to be the duration of the laminitic episode and not its seriousness that is more predictive of the outcome.  I am not certain that that is the experience of the traditional farrier which makes me think that there may be a disconnect - but there may not be.  I will know more after my farrier reviews Pete Ramey's materials.   This of course, is just another example of the lack of communication and debate between mainstream and what ECIR and others are doing.  It is a source of great frustration to at least three vets I have spoken with on the Island - and you can probably tell, it has made me crazy.  We all just want the best info to help horses.  Unfortunately, our plan to ask that Dr. Kellon be invited to start that discussion in earnest at the annual vet conference has been scuttled, as there is no vet conference this year.
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sandra,

You said, "What I do not know at this point is whether the mainstream views on proper trimming and ECIR views on proper trimming coincide. "   

This made me think of part of the introduction to our sister group,  EC Hoof , with respect to hoof care and trim protocol.
 
In part, it says, "Only one style of hoof care is endorsed: careful, thorough, and ongoing evaluation of each horse's situation. This includes external hoof shape and condition, position and condition of internal structures, and relevant aspects of diet, environment, housing and footing."

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

Lorna. Your link to equipodiatry was not available anymore. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

I found a farrier who is coming to see Target this weekend. He thinks the clogs can help her. Says my other trimmers were on the wrong track. Feel positive about his coming, finally getting some help for Target. She was so sore last Sat. for the first time I thought maybe it was time. She was struggling to take just one step. Her eyes are still bright, she nickers for treats and is eating drinking and pooping, all good signs I think. Thank yfor the suggestions, I'll keep you posted after the farrier sees her and deceides what to do.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The trim recommended here is nothing new. It's a basic realigning trim.  Even the instructions for things like clogs begin with that trim.  Don't confuse mainstream with what's trending.  The reverse is also often true. What sounds different may be very old. Remember when pea gravel became "the thing" for footing?  This is what the ancient Greek Xenophon suggested:

"To secure the best type of stable-yard, and with a view to strengthening the horse's feet, I would suggest to take and throw down loosely four or five waggon loads of pebbles, each as large as can be grasped in the hand, and about a pound in weight; the whole to be fenced round with a skirting of iron to prevent scattering. The mere standing on these will come to precisely the same thing as if for a certain portion of the day the horse were, off and on, stepping along a stony road; whilst being curried or when fidgeted by flies he will be forced to use his hoofs just as much as if he were walking. Nor is it the hoofs merely, but a surface so strewn with stones will tend to harden the frog of the foot also."

A little bigger than pea gravel but same principle.

Not all feet can be restored to normal, or even best alignment. Pete is correct that the chronicity of damage is important.  A horse with acute laminitis and rotation is very different from one with the same rotation and a huge laminar wedge with bone loss. Many factors to consider.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001