Labs and Radiographs
Hi. I have a terrible time with the case history uploading and linking thing. Hope it works. We recently moved from MI to ME and my horse, Cooper, developed his second bout of laminitis. The new vet on 7/9/2020 increased his Prescend from 1 1/2 pills to 2 pills, increased his Thyro-L from 3 teaspoons to 4, had me continue his Metformin and then had me add InsulinWise. She drew insulin only and then did radiographs and had the farrier trim his front feet. She initially wanted to check insulin and ACTH in four weeks along with doing more radiographs and having the farrier trim again. I declined the second set of radiographs and the farrier visit. His trim left Cooper way worse then he started. So now she wants to wait until Sept 1st to retest ACTH (during the rise) and insulin. If Cooper's insulin is lower, how do I go about figuring out if the metformin or InsulinWise is working? Also how often do most people get radiographs? My MI vets rechecked his feet in 3 months, not four weeks. Thanks so much,
-- Melissa and Cooper 07/2019 Montville, ME https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melissa%20and%20Cooper |
||
|
||
Trisha DePietro
Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos Primary Responder |
||
|
||
Hi Melissa, Thank you for moving your case history into our Case History group. Sorry about the confusion there. The option to post from your Dropbox, Google, etc. is a new one apparently, one that we just became aware of with your post, and we have yet to explore. I’m not sure if they can be accessed by someone who does not have the appropriate account, whereas the files in the Case History group are available to all of us.
It sounds like you are not particularly satisfied with your experiences with the new vet and farrier. Maybe, since you’re new to the area, this would be a good time to try to expand your options a bit. I looked on the map to see where you are located. We attended a llama conference at a summer camp in Freedom, ME some years ago. I remember it as quite rural but not like some parts of Maine, further north. Maybe call a few, explain you are new to the area and interested in getting better acquainted. A new ACTH test before we get too far into the rise might be a good opportunity.
I looked over Cooper’s case history and see a number of ways we could help you, from working to tighten up the diet and assessing the trim to providing more details on the supplements and meds you are giving. Lots of this information is addressed in the ECIR welcome. The metformin dose this group recommends is 30mg/kg, twice daily. It appears you might have your units incorrect so you might want to compare what you’re actually giving to our recommendation. Most people here have not found Insulinwise to be useful. If you find that it is not giving you the results you desire, I believe they will refund your purchase cost. Something to keep in mind.
As Trisha stated, new Xrays won’t really serve any purpose over the short term. Your goal should be to modify his diet ASAP to prevent further changes. The Xrays you have will help the farrier to trim him to be more comfortable and continue to improve. The goal is to provide a tight hoof capsule for the foot. You have suggested that you have radiographs posted but I’m not sure where they are. Providing us with a look at the Xrays, as well as properly taken corresponding hoof photos would help us to help you and Cooper. Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
||
|
||
Sherry Morse
Hi Melissa, Sorry you had such an issue with the CH - it looks like you were the (un)lucky first person to find a new way of doing the upload and linking to somewhere else but since I found your folder in the CH files I think you have that all fixed now. With that cleared up (and thank you for perservering!) you can do a search on Insulinwise in our messages to see other's experiences with it but I think for most people they haven't seen any difference with it. Now I have a bunch of questions for you which will hopefully help us help you and Cooper. Is there a reason the vet had you increase the Thyro-L? It may help with weight loss, but it has not been shown to decrease insulin so if that was her reasoning you may want to discuss that with her. Same question for the Prascend as Cooper's level from January showed he was well controlled at that point. Without running another ACTH it's just a guess at if increasing ACTH is driving his insulin up. As far as the metformin - is that a once a day dose or 2x a day? The recommended dose is 30mg/kg 2x a day so by my calculations for Cooper's current weight that comes out to 14,940mg/2x a day. It's hard to say why the trim made Cooper worse - was this a new farrier or one you have been using? Did he trim to the radiographs? If you could start an album on the Case History group with the radiographs and trim pictures that will help us assess the trim. Directions on that https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1482#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help. What did the x-rays show? For redoing bloodwork - ideally you'll be able to have the vet test insulin, glucose as well as ACTH at the same time to get a better overall view of all of Cooper's numbers. Testing during the rise would let you know if the current dose of Prascend is keeping his ACTH level where it should be and help eliminate that from causing an insulin increase (if it's within the range for seasonal rise in a normal horse) or you could wait until after the rise to have everything checked, but ultimately that decision is something you need to discuss with your vet. And one last question - you say in the CH that you were feeding free choice hay to 3 horses and now you're doing 18lbs. per horse per day. Are they still all being fed together? That makes it very hard - as you probably already know - to assess who's actually eating what amount of hay. If it isn't possible to separate them you may need to consider muzzling Cooper to help restrict his intake.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
||
|
||
Melissa Mathurin
Hi! The llama farm shares our property line on the other side of the mountain. How funny!
Yes, I may need to find another vet. I would like to see his ACTH level. I was only trying the InsulinWise to follow the vet's advice. I did see on here that it was not really a miracle worker. My current dose of Metformin is 16,000 mg twice a day. I just uploaded my current radiographs to the photo section but have not labeled them or linked them to my signature. Cooper's toes were way too long. I had a hard time finding a farrier in MI. The one I used didn't know why the vet wanted him to see the set of radiographs when Cooper was first diagnosed. He just trimmed him without looking at them. -- Melissa and Cooper 07/2019 Montville, ME https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melissa%20and%20Cooper |
||
|
||
Melissa Mathurin
Sherry,
The vet increased his Thyro-L to help with weight loss. I'm not exactly sure why she increased his Prascend since I had provided her with Cooper's ACTH level that had been done in May of this year. She did not want to check his glucose, even though I asked about it. The vet only works with one farrier for founder. He charges $100 per foot, which I didn't know until it was time to pay him. He only did the front feet and said he'd do the all the feet when he returned in 4 weeks. They were planning on using plastic shoes for him. Cooper went from moving around slowly in his Cloud boots to not being able to move more than a step or two at a time. I called her and she had me increase his bute to 4g/day. She said that his soreness was to be expected. Cooper did slowly improve over a week or so and I weaned him off the Bute. Cooper has now lost 51 pounds since I stopped feeding free choice and began soaking the hay. I'm feeding out of the 1 inch hay nets. It's been so hot during the day that he spends a lot of time in the shed, once it gets hotter. I was concerned that they were leaving hay in both the day and evening bags but now they're eating most of it. My old horse, Harley, can't chew hay anymore. He just takes a few bites of it here and there. I'm feeding him soaked hay cubes 4x/day. I had considered using a grazing muzzle on him but since he's been losing weight (and my other horse's weight has remained the same), I've been waiting to see if he really needs one at this time. Thanks for the help! -- Melissa and Cooper 07/2019 Montville, ME https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melissa%20and%20Cooper |
||
|
||
Sherry Morse
Hi Melissa, Overall his feet post-trim are in much better shape than they were prior to the trim but it also looks like there might be more pressure on his toes post-trim which could explain why he was reluctant to move at all. Lavinia can probably explain that better than I can but having a set of hoof pictures to go with the xrays is really helpful as well.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
||
|
||
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Melissa,
Thanks for adding the radiographs and photos. Here's the link to the album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251365&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0 When you have a moment, you can add that to your signature as well. Sorry to hear Cooper had such a hard time after his trim. Glad he is feeling better and off the bute now. The trim removed all of the laminar wedge on both fronts and brought the breakover back considerably, which was needed. LF toe was actually brought back a bit too far. Unfortunately, the trim also thinned Copper's soles, which were at just an adequate depth before the trim, so had nothing extra to remove. That is likely the biggest source of his post-trim discomfort. I can't tell if the frogs were trimmed but they don't appear to be even close to making ground contact and look as if they were also trimmed. If they were, that could be another source of the soreness and why he appears to be wanting to stand more on his toes right now. His heels are underrun and significantly flared. That needs to be addressed but without losing any of the vertical height. That means they can't just be cut back further as that would result in his coffin bones becoming ground parallel (NOT what is needed). The Cloud boots are a perfectly good way to manage him at this point and I don't see any reason to put any type of shoes on. It would be helpful to see a full set of hoof photos, of all four feet. Here's the link to what's needed: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472 -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR |
||
|