Date
1 - 14 of 14
Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption
|
Reta Heaslip
On July 7, 2020 I posted a message regarding Whistler's deteriorating body condition. At the time his bony parts (ribs, spine, hips & pelvis) were very prominent with little protection. I was concerned, as was Lorna Cane who I board with, about the cause of what appeared to be weight loss and reached out to ECIR for help. A number of possibilities were considered including insufficient daily hay ration, teeth, worms, inclimate weather (heat wave) and ulcers. Based on photos posted, Dr. Kellon noted "the muscle loss along the topline is far more evident than shoulders, neck, upper legs and propulsive muscles of the hindquarters. The ribs are more prominent than they should be but he has some abdominal laxity and/or distention that is pulling the skin tight over the ribs and contributing to that appearance." She recommended tests for ACTH and Serum Vitamin A. I also requested a CBC/Profile from my Vet. Subsequently the test results showed ACTH at 2.8 pmol/L suggesting a Controlled PPID, Serum Vitamin E was adequate and components of the blood chemistry were all within recommended ranges. My Vet suggested Equitop Myoplast to help develop topline, however, with the advise of ECIR, I decided not to use this product. Whistler's teeth were rechecked, he was dewormed and, as for the weather, Dr. Kellon noted "Heat stress can cause dehydration but this causes evenly distributed weight loss and I don't see that." Of note, there have not been any other clinical signs, other than muscle loss along the topline, to help identify the nature of his condition.
At different times in June, Whistler's poor body condition was noted by five different people including my Vet and farrier. Prior to messaging ECIR in July, Lorna and I decided to increase his total daily food ration (18 lbs hay plus 2 lbs ration balancer) to free choice hay (in 1" and 1/2" nets) plus 2 lbs ration balancer. This certainly has helped. But could there be something else going on? I went through my records to consider timelines over the past 3 years, focusing on weight, feed, exercise, housing, and daily routines. Lorna and I are also looking at improper saddle fit as a possible contributing factor to muscle wastage along topline. Whistler's daily routine has remained static during that time and he continues to have companions outside his dry lot fencing. In spring and fall we hack 3-4 days a week for a duration of 1 to 2.5 hours. During summer and winter months we ride when weather conditions allow. Up until June of 2020, Whistler had consumed a total daily food ration of 18-19 lbs (16-17 lbs hay plus 2 lbs carrier for supplements including soy hull pellets or Complete Timothy Balance Cubes). Hay ration was increased during cold winter temperatures as needed. Looking back at his weight even further to 2017, he maintained between 945 and 967 lbs. During the winter months of 2020, Whistler's heart girth dropped from 72" (January) to 71" (April) - not unusual. In spring he shed out with a shiny coat and good body condition. On June 9, he seemed thinner and his heart girth had decreased to 70.5", however his weight was recorded as 948 lbs. Nonetheless, I decided to increase his hay to 18 lbs making a total daily ration of 20 lbs. By June 19th, his body condition had markedly deteriorated and that's when Lorna and I increased hay to free choice plus 2 lbs of ration balancer daily. On July 14 his weight increased to 962 lbs and by July 24 he weighed in at 1008 lbs. As of August 11, Whistler's heart girth had increased to 71.5" and his weight was 1084 lbs. His bony parts are nicely covered and we consider his body condition score to be 5 (see photo album). During the months of July and August I recorded how much hay was put out each day (free choice) and how much he had consumed. We were hoping that he would self regulate food intake. For the month of July he consumed on average 25.5 lbs of hay (lowest daily intake - 10 lbs; highest - 31 lbs) plus 2 lbs ration balancer daily (27.5 lbs Total Daily Food Intake). In August he consumed an average of 26 lbs of hay per day (lowest daily intake 14 lbs; highest 44 lbs) plus 2 lbs ration balancer (28 lbs Total Daily Food Intake). Is this considered self-regulating? Now Lorna and I are completely baffled. First, Are we overlooking or missing the cause of his poor body condition in light of the fact that weight loss was not an issue, tests were normal and other than muscle loss along topline there were no other clinical signs to identify the nature of his condition . Second, Why would a 14.3 hands horse require that much food (total hay plus ration balancer) to attain a good body condition when he ate so much less in the past to maintain that condition? Third, Is Whistler truly self regulating his intake of hay? It seems like he is at risk to becoming overweight. If we regulate hay intake once again would body condition deteriorate? Lorna, please jump in with your thoughts. -- Reta Sept 7, 2017 Gananoque, ON, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseH https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035 |
|
|
|
Sherry Morse
Hi Reta, Self-regulating - to me - means the horse isn't standing with its head in the hay 24/7 and eating continuously. From your description it doesn't sound like Whistler is doing that so he is in fact self-regulating to some extent. As far as the why of the weight loss and then why he needs to eat so much to maintain his weight - not sure if you're ever going to have a good answer on that if all his bloodwork looks good and he's not having any obvious issues. And finally, unfortunately, the only way to know if regulating his hay will cause a problem is to do it and see what happens. However, at this point unless he started to become fat on the free choice hay I wouldn't be that concerned with regulating him as I would be with a horse that did nothing but eat all day and turn into a whale.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
|
|
|
Trisha DePietro
I have a similar experience with one of my horses....she needs to have 3% fed of her ideal body weight to maintain a consistent weight. Otherwise, she loses and gains sporadically if I drop it to 1.5% or even 2%. She tends to stand and eat all day unless I break it up with purposeful activity. I think her leptin button is broken.:) Since I found something that works to keep her at a good weight consistently....I don't mess with it. In winter I still go up on hay amounts due to extreme cold, but other than that its at 3%...Just my experience....
-- Trisha DePietro Aug 2018 NH Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope Dolly's Photos Hope's Photos Primary Responder |
|
|
|
Me jumping in,Reta.
As an aside....Reta is diligent about keeping a journal, and it has been so helpful in reminding us of what was happening when, and how much time had passed between this and that. So often, going over this case,we wondered about a timeline,and the journal has always filled in our memory gaps. Over the past 45ish years of caring for about 15 horses, I've never fed those of Whistler's size 20+ pounds of hay a day, to keep them in good weight. They were in the range of 940 pounds . If they did get close to 1000 pounds (before I found this group), they were fat . So this is colouring my perceptions here. And ,as Reta has said, Whistler maintained good weight for the 3 years he has been here, on 16-18 pounds of total feed a day.His hay nets usually had a bit remaining in them in the morning (maybe only a pound or two), and he never seemed stressed about not having had enough. The saddle issues have a role to play,and this is being addressed. But until a wee hack yesterday,he hadn't been ridden for about 2 1/2 months ( Reta ? ) , saddle issues/body condition and humidity playing a role. I would have expected the lack of exercise , combined with extra hay would have been noticeable. Instead he became too thin. Otherwise looking a feeling great. He weighs about 1084 pounds now.(tape) If I were told a 14.3hh pony weighed this, my first impression would be too much food,too little exercise. But, then I look at Whistler,and to my eye he looks great now . Bones not prominent. Shiny coat. Clear eyes. But for 3 years he has looked great at about 950 pounds....sigh. I'm inclined to reduce his total feed to 20 pounds. That's 18 pounds hay and 2 pounds carrier for minerals. We have time before winter (when I wouldn't want to be experimenting) to watch BW and attitude. Or....just listen to him and if he begins to look heavier than now, reduce then ? -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario |
|
|
|
Hi, Reta.
My gut reaction --with no more basis than "if it walks like a duck..."-- is to return to this comment by Dr Kellon: "I know his ACTH is testing well within normal but the distribution of muscle loss is highly suspicious first and foremost for uncontrolled PPID." https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/251966 If he were mine, I'd be going over the submission of his blood work through IDEXX and trialing increased pergolide (with your vet's advice and consent). Your latest ACTH results are perplexing. Is pergolide dosing information in your Case History accurate? To have a lower ACTH in late July than in early May, without a dosage change, isn't something I've seen with my two PPID mares. Truthfully I never saw an ACTH that low ever in any of my three mares, including before they were diagnosed with PPID. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
|
|
|
Are you saying that you think IDEXX mishandled the sample? I think my last sample was sent to Cornell via IDEXX because I received a free test through BI via my vet. I assume it was free because BI had some study underway for regarding the efficacy of Prascend.
-- Gail Russell 8/30/2008
|
|
|
|
P.S. I'm not an expert doing the conversion from pmol/L. I used an online calculator, here, which gave the same results as another converter, here.
2.8 pmol/L is close to 12.72 pg/ml. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
|
|
|
Sample mishandling is always possible. I say that based on my own recent personal mistakes that prevented us from getting accurate, representative test results for both insulin and ACTH.
-- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
|
|
|
Reta Heaslip
Case History is up-to-date. I agree, Cass, samples can be mishandled resulting in test numbers that do not truly represent what's going on. I have also experienced this in the past with a faulty Glucose test. Assuming the ACTH test numbers are actually higher and indicative of uncontrolled PPID, then why is Whistler a picture of good health now that we have increased his daily hay? He does have muscle loss along the topline which has been evident for the past two years, however, there are not other symptoms and he no longer has the look of "abdominal laxity and/or distention that is pulling the skin tight over the ribs". (Dr. Kellon's description of photos dated July 6th.) As Lorna says, "He looks fabulous". My question then is, If PPID is uncontrolled, wouldn't Whistler continue to show symptoms in spite of the fact that he is eating greater amounts of hay?
Is it possible there is a link between uncontrolled PPID and disproportionate hay consumption? As a 14.3 hand horse whose diet, weight, and body condition have been stable since being diagnosed with IR/PPID, could it be that Whistler's increased appetite is a symptom of uncontrolled PPID? -- Reta Sept 7, 2017 Gananoque, ON, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseH https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035 |
|
|
|
Hi, Reta.
Your Whistler is an enigma. Yes, there could be a link between uncontrolled PPID and Whistler's increased hay consumption required to maintain condition. His coat is shiny and beautiful, I agree. He doesn't look rough. Recognizing all the varied symptoms of ACTH that is under-controlled is not that easy IME. Each horse is unique. My TWH always has a shiny coat (if I bathe her,) but I learned after treating her PPID for several years that her ACTH needs to be at a lower level than I thought to see all the benefits of controlled ACTH. I'm laser-focused on Whistler's rounded belly hanging lower than his heart girth and the sudden need to increase hay to maintain condition. We do know that some horses with uncontrolled PPID cannot hold their weight. Others pack on weight. I wanted to get the ACTH/PPID issue first on your check list. I've never seen ACTH that low. Do you have an explanation why his ACTH in July is lower than in May? There can be other causes. That belly could be hay belly. I have one that has that, too. She's my semi-rescue Paint. But she has no loss of top line, and as far as we know, she is not PPID. Older horses have significantly diminished gut flora/fauna that can affect digestion. For that reason, I intermittently treat my horses with a very good prebiotic, FORCO, if we encounter digestive issues (usually somewhat loose manure). I saw FORCO on Amazon.ca at a ridiculous price. Do you know of something similar that isn't highway robbery? That would be the second item on the check list. I'm sorry I have no Ontario-specific products to offer. They aren't cheap, but they can help hay belly as well as what I'll call digestive efficiency: effective extraction of nutrients from what is eaten. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos |
|
|
|
My only thought is maybe dental? Did he have dental work (floating) done in the spring before his weight dropped off? It is my understanding that aggressive dental work can reduce chewing efficiency, sometimes quite dramatically.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
|
|
|
Reta Heaslip
Thank you all for your responses. It has given us other avenues to consider as to why Whistler's body condition deteriorated.
Cass, I do not have an explanation for why ACTH test results were lower in July than in May. I am awaiting my Vet's response and will let you know what he says. At the time I didn't question it and was more relieved that it wasn't high. I am determined to be more inquisitive and less accepting of test results and related feedback. I am pleased to report that Whistler's self-regulating of hay consumption over the past 6 days has averaged 22 lbs per day (plus 2 lbs ration balancer per day). Compared to his July average of 26 lbs per day (plus 2 lbs ration balancer/day), this is encouraging and I am hopeful he will eat to maintain his body condition. I am experimenting with netting strategies to help him along. Definitely, keeping a close check on weight and BCS. Kirsten, Whistler's teeth were floated in May and then, with the scare of his body condition worsening, rechecked in July. The Vet gave him a bill of good health with a suggestion to try Myoplast to help develop his topline. (Decided against this.) Initially, I considered his condition to be the result of weight loss, however, Dr. Kellon noted muscle wastage along the topline. Upping his hay intake from controlled to free choice has been beneficial in that he has gained weight, his bones no longer stick out, and his body condition is much improved - although still muscle loss along topline. Lorna and I have addressed other possible contributing factors as well including water, manure, worms, etc. -- Reta Sept 7, 2017 Gananoque, ON, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseH https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035 |
|
|
|
Reta Heaslip
Dr. Kellon. I thought I'd give this one last shot before resigning to the unknown. Briefly, Whistler has flourished into a good body condition with free choice hay. His daily intake of hay is closely monitored and it looks like he is self-regulating as there is hay left over when checked the following morning. But here's the thing - Whistler, for the past 4 years (since diagnosis of IR/PPID), has consumed between 16 to 18 lbs of hay per day (plus 2 lbs ration balancer). Prior to his recent body condition deterioration in June with prominent muscle loss along the topline, he was eating 18 lbs hay plus 2 lbs ration balancer per day (20 lbs total daily food intake). Presently he is averaging 25 lbs of hay per day plus 2 lbs ration balancer. He is a 14.3 hands horse, age 17, in light work when exercised. How can he possibly need a daily diet of 27 lbs? Could there be a link between Uncontrolled PPID (if that's what it is) and the need for more calories to maintain his condition? His weight has increased from 1008 lbs (July 24) to 1084 lbs (August 11) and then down to 1069 lbs (August 24). That's encouraging.
Also is there an explanation why ACTH test results would be lower in July (2.8 pmol/L) compared to those in May (3.9) aside from possible mishandling? -- Reta Sept 7, 2017 Gananoque, ON, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseH https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035 |
|
|
|
In case this helps, I wanted to repeat what Reta said in her first post, wrt Whistler's usual weight, over the last few years:
"Looking back at his weight even further to 2017, he maintained between 945 and 967 lbs. During the winter months of 2020, Whistler's heart girth dropped from 72" (January) to 71" (April) - not unusual. In spring he shed out with a shiny coat and good body condition. On June 9, he seemed thinner and his heart girth had decreased to 70.5", however his weight was recorded as 948 lbs. " We thought he looked good at those weights. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario |
|
|