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1 - 12 of 12
is ESC affected by hay curing?
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I sampled hay that had only been cut 1 week prior that we had to rush to pick up out of the field as soon as it was baled (due to a very small sun window of 5 days in our incredibly wet summer) and I'm wondering if that might have affected my analysis, particularly the ESC value? I have uploaded it to my Case History folder, it is the "Quick Orchard 2020" file. Does it need to cure longer before I sample it? I specifically bought hay out of the field that was cut early in the day in an attempt to reduce the sugar content, but the ESC is 9.9% as fed so I am very disappointed to say the least. It is also on the high side for iron and low side for protein, I know that can be helped with mineral supplementation though. Fortunately I don't need to feed it to Shaku as I have 1 more year of my lower sugar hay left for him, so my non-IR boarder will get this hay.
Also, the moisture was 15% (and the lab described it as "damp")...anyone have concerns with that being too high? -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Hi Kirsten,
My concern was about hay fires so I did some research and found that you’re okay in that regard at 15% but not at 20%. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo |
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How long after the hay was cut until you took core samples? I wouldn't be happy with that ESC level for an IR horse. You also have the option to to take another sample after the hay has fully cured and have just the ESC test done. A single test is pretty low cost.
The problem with baled "damp" hay is the likely hood of it becoming "dusty" with mold spores and your horses breathing that in. Been there, done that. Horse developed heaves. -- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016 ECIR Group Primary Response White Cloud, Michigan, USA |
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Hi Martha, yes that is my greatest fear...the farmer said he probed every bale with a moisture meter and they were all less than 15% moisture but it still worries me.
Bonnie, I cored it 1 week after it was cut. I was wondering if the hay might still have been metabolizing sugars and maybe ESC was still dropping after 1 week? I could re-run the carb analysis on a new sample...how long should I wait to re-sample? There is conflicting information online on when mold becomes a problem. I have read it happens at 14-15%, or only over 20% moisture. Do you remember, Bonnie, what your moisture content was in the hay that caused heaves? -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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gypsylassie
Kirsten, as far as the ESC is concerned, I learned here that hay will continue to, I think the word is respire, until it reaches around the 10% moisture level. During that process it may lose some sugar. After that the sugar
% will stay the same. So I think maybe wait a month ? And recheck the ESC. Was the test wet chem?
As far as the moisture level goes, it probably depends on different factors, but I was told that the 18% and 19% hay I bought in 2019 was a big, solid, " it will mold". I returned it and what I got in exchange ended up
testing at 15%. The high moisture hays had a very, very slight "I'm going to mold" smell when I opened the bales. The 15% did not have that smell and it ended up ok. This was last year which was extremely wet and I was lucky to get anything usable. So
the 15% might or might not be ok. But if you open some bales and smell it, you may be able to tell. If I buy hay that is recently baled, I stack it on its cut sides and stack somewhat loosely for better drying.
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL
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Yes it was wet chem. It's beautiful smelling hay and it is stacked looser than normal so hopefully it will be fine. It will be interesting to see the moisture level in a month too. Thanks Laura.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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gypsylassie
Yes it will be interesting to see the moisture and ESC. I've never tried a follow up test like that. If it smells really good, I'll bet it cures nicely and won't mold. At least its starch is low, so if the ESC doesn't
go down much you can soak it if you want, or just feed it to your non-IR horse.
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL
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Jennifer Murphy
I have a similar situation, and now I'm curious as to what that answer might be considering ESC.
My hay supplier cut, dried, and baled one field just for me. He cut early in the morning so the sugar would be low. He delivered 100 bales and I had that tested using the 601 test. The ESC came back at 8.3, the starch at .6 - sampled on 6/23, and I think the hay had been baled for a week or two. He brought a second load and just for interests sake, I tested that load. The ESC came back at 6.3, the starch at .7 - sampled on 7/6 using the 601 test. The third and final load was delivered and after reading on this site that the wet chemistry test was recommended, I sent in yet another sample for the 603 test. The ESC came back at 9.4 and the starch at .5 and that was sampled on 7/10. I think I'll take one more sample and just have the ESC tested to see if there was any change. You would expect to get fairly similar numbers throughout the 400 bales all from the same field. The moisture contend on the three loads ranged from 7 to 9%, but it's been so humid that a lot of the bales just smell off. I tossed one bale into the woods yesterday that had no visible mold, no dusty spores released when opened, but it just didn't smell right to me. -- Jennifer in NH 2020 CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 |
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Hi Kirsten,
I was advised to let my hay cure for 6 weeks before testing from my mineral balancer. We bale large round bales and at 15% tested in the field we haven't had mold problems. -- Nancy and Akira 3/20/2018 Burkesville KY Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira |
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Hi KIrsten and all
Thanks for making me go back and review an area that has always puzzled me. Taken me nine years to get the concepts behind the recommendation in my head. I don't think we can say across the board that ESC reduces with curing. I believe that was a hypothesis once reported here, over a decade ago, but over the years research and understanding of forage physiology has come to light that shows storage forms of carbohydrates (fructan, for example) will be used to make simple sugar as the moisture is lost and the hay dries. As the fructan is converted to simple sugar, the ESC remains the same. This quote from Dr Kellon finally hit home for me today Lars has posted data clearly showing that hay depletes its fructan reserves during curing, while sugars change little. This makes sense since cutting/harvesting is a "stress" to the plant and as long as it retained enough moisture to mimic the live state it will strive to maintain the sugar levels necessary to life. (Mammalian bodies do the same thing.) I believe this is the study Dr Kellon refers to https://www.rseco.org/book/export/html/43.html Here is a fairly long thread https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/1059967#186842 This message goes to the heart of if https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/186842 There may be reasons for waiting for the hay to "cure" to test it, however, I have never done so on purpose and would be interested in reviewing why this may be needed. As I think I recall from NRCPlus, we review how to calculate mineral results from a less than 90% dry matter result. I bring this to light in case folks are routinely waiting or perhaps assuming simple sugars will go lower with curing. Dr Kellon, please let me know if I am off base. Jennifer -- I believe you are saying the two #601 tests were cut at the same time and I understand your question about the differences. Your #603 results higher that #601 are not unusual. Thanks for doing this. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2019-2020 Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA |
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gypsylassie
Jennifer, those results do a good job of showing the differences that can happen with NIR.
Nancy, very good info. And I sure remember Lars and his very informative posts about hay.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau over the bridge
20211 N IL
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Thank you, Nancy, for the very detailed post. That message link got a little heated! Lol
So its fairly safe to assume ESC does not change significantly. If I send another sample in a few weeks I will update this message thread with the new results, but it's probably not worth the expense since my IR horse will not be fed this hay. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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