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EOTHR

Laurie H

I think Atticus is now suffering from EOTHR where the roots of the incisors resorb. The dentist who does occlusal equilibration thinks Atticus has it. I’ll be making a vet appointment for X-rays after the holiday.

I’ve read that 60+% of horses over 14 show some signs of EOTHR.

What have others experienced? Of all the horses I’ve owned over the years, I’d never heard of it until my other horse (Ollie, now deceased) was thought to have it as well. How unlucky am I to have two geldings at age 16 diagnosed with EOTHR?

Are there therapies that help slow the process? Or is the only solution pulling the incisors? Is there something missing nutritionally?

Laurie and Atticus and Diamond - 05 2016
Collegeville, PA
Atticus Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Atticus%20Case%20History/Atticus%20Case%20History.docx.pdf.

Diamond Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Diamond%20Case%20History/Diamond%27s%20Case%20History.pdf
Atticus Current Hay Analysis - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Hay%20Analysis/Hay%20Analysis%209-8-17.pdf.

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

#254418

This is from our files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Dental%20Care/EOTRH%20Presentation2014.pdf
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001

LJ Friedman

#254424

if you’re extracting, suggest touse a specialized vet that has experience with EOTRH. After care is crucial. You have to clean the mouth twice a day. I would use a hose to flush the mouth and then syringe in the chlorhexidine solution twice a day as well. Your life will be easier if you have one of those Huge syringe type devices that can plunge in a very large amount of water at one time. I always forget the name.of the device.
--
LJ Friedman Nov 2014 Vista, Northern San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History
Jesse's Photos

Laurie H

#254425

Dr. Kellon,

Thank you for that link.

What I get from this reading is that the risk factors for my two horses seem to be lack of grazing. The other horse was a grade TB and Atticus is a TB/Hanoverian cross. There is also the risk factor of being a TB or TB cross or WB cross. Ollie being one and Atticus is the other.

Since Ollie couldn’t stand to be outside with flies, even with a fly sheet and a mask, everyone just stayed in the paddock on small-hole hay nets. One is hung on a wall near the ground and the other hangs from the ceiling but into a hay box. I think I need to remove the hay box so that the net is near the ground.

The other issue is grazing. I let the pony (Diamond) and Atty out to graze for about 15 minutes while I clean stalls. I do have muzzles for them but they get so frustrated with the muzzles that that either get them off or come back into the paddock to eat hay, which they can’t do with the muzzles on. I gave up on the muzzles. But maybe I need to go back to doing that and just letting them try to figure out how to graze with muzzles on.

I don’t know how to balance the various competing interests. :(

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Martha McSherry

#254427

Laurie, if you search the messages on EOTRH, I would think you will find lots. I know I’ve contributed to that discussion. I first learned of it in Logo, a Holsteiner with PPID, when he was 25. I did not remove any teeth as they didn’t seem to be bothering him. He got lots of grazing time after coming to Vermont at 14 but very little before that.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response

July 2012

Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

#254428

I know it can be difficult to sort this out but aggressive dentistry, including incisor reductions, and metabolic disease were the main risk factors. The lack of grazing may have been secondary to having metabolic disease. They note that alfalfa is easier to chew (but so is grass) and it has high calcium, but they don't address possible long term effects of the serious imbalance in calcium:phosphorus ratio. Also not mentioned was that PPID has long been known to cause loosening of the teeth (effect on the periodonal ligaments). So - it's complicated!

My point here is that your management did NOT cause it - and can't change it.

I know the incisor removal sounds incredibly invasive but it really is the only way to eliminate their pain and horses do extremely well after it.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001

Laurie H

#254433

Dr. Kellon,

Thank you for the input and clarification.

The point at which I’m having difficulty is understanding why Ollie, the grade TB, also developed EOTHR, other than being TB (possibly) and lack of grazing. He was not IR.

I don’t believe the dentists have been aggressive, but I guess that can be a subjective assessment. Or maybe there’s an objective way of assessing that, but I don’t know how to do that.

Anyway, I’m trying to figure out why Ollie developed it and what the common threads are.

Again, thank you for all the info.
--

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Laurie H

#254434

Martha,

Thank you. :)
--

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

#254442
Edited

Laurie,

There isn't necessarily a common thread. Certainly a lot more horses don't graze than develop this. It is also probably being diagnosed, or suspected, a lot earlier than in the past.

Some would disagree with me but motorized = aggressive more often than not. I particularly hate incisor alignment. Normally, as molars wear down, incisors increase in length and grow more forward. Molar surfaces are still in contact. When molars are too aggressively lowered, the upper and lower arcades don't meet well - leading to them "needing" incisor reduction.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001

Gail Russell

#254443

We had a vet who was a bit green take an eight year old horse's incisors down to the gums. I think she had probably taken the molars down way too far. This was a horse that had probably had little dental in it's previous years. If any at all.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .

Cindy Q

#254457
Edited

We have one pony that developed it and had all the 12 front teeth removed. He still eats hay well (bermuda - which is softer here than our timothy which can be rather stalky) and a simple bucket feed as he has molars for chewing, treats no problem (he is not metabolic). He can even graze a bit on grass but we only allow him a little pick as he can tear his gums repeatedly trying to pull grass - if we let him have longer he would keep going. I was told some horses learn to use their lips to pull the grass up. The dental specialist vet who did it for us (our usual vet brought him in as a consultant) was confident (from Thailand but trained in Australia) and had it done under standing sedation in less than 1 hr 30 min. He explained to me that it was painful (our vet showed us that the pony flinched when the gums/teeth were touched) and that the pony would be much more comfortable after the affected teeth were removed (he checked by xrays to decide which ones needed removal) and that not removing, it would continue to advance. The risk factor he told us was more in older horses (our pony was about 19 when diagnosed) and he also thought that it seems more "common" these days because it is better diagnosed. The main thing for aftercare was to flush it a few times daily with some antiseptic/antibacterial wash and also water to get food out from being stuck and our usual vet followed up to recheck.

In contrast the dental specialist vet at the hospital attached to the racetrack told us it would take (I think - it was a few years back) at least 2 hours under general anaesthetic and he could only remove 2 teeth first and we would have to repeat again later. The risk of GA was concerning as our pony was not young so I'm glad we had the other option that went very well. He also said he had never dealt with EOTRH before (I suppose they don't get that old at the racetrack).
--

Cindy and Glow - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Glow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9798

celestinefarm

#254458

This is timely. Cornell is hosting an online one hour seminar on Dentistry and EOTHR given by one of leading veterinary specialists in this subject. It is tomorrow night from 6-7pm via Zoom.
Here is the link for information , it appears to be open to anyone online who is interested.
https://www.vet.cornell.edu/hospitals/equine-hospital/equine-seminar-series?fbclid=IwAR2JxsqNW4bmock8R2-vja5dQEYbNin9G9p0WWMkXYnQbhvcf_GiDCbiZKQ

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary

Saline, MI 2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .