Feed recommendations please


Allison
 

Hello, first post.
I have a 23 yr old gelding with suspected penile Squamous cell carcinoma. I say suspected because the only vet I have available to me will not do a biopsy to confirm. So we are dealing with that.

3 weeks ago my boy presented with a swollen sheath. Suspected infection, again just visually diagnosed (temp was normal, no swabs done by vet) given a 6 day round of antibiotics,  told to flush daily with salt water and put on low dose previcox for pain. Hes still on pasture but is losing condition on his topline,  although hes in regular light work. 

Swelling diminished greatly and we finished the antibiotics. I went away for three days came home to a swollen sheath twice as bad as the first time. Vet dispensed another 6 day round of same antibiotics. I resumed the salt water flushes and am now cold hosing also. We are on day 4 of antibiotics and swelling is still very pronounced. Just giving you all the background info I can. 

The idea of testing for PPID has been brought up by another vet online. So that's next on the agenda. Heres my question after all that preamble...

Is there a feed available in Ontario that would be suitable for him? Hes on Madbarn Omneity, 2 lbs of soaked alf/tim cubes, 1 lb soy bean meal and pasture each day. Soon to switch from pasture to hay, and will also be switching to a custom madbarn vit/min to balance our iron/copper/zinc, as our iron count doubled over last year. But his topline is bothersome. I want to supplement him with more calories but stay low sugar. His hay analysis is under 10% for esc and starch.

I have limited feed options here. Brooks, tribute,  masterfeeds, buckeye are about it. Or I can do a custom whatever I dont care if I have to concoct it myself in the feed room. Help!
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Allison,

Welcome to the group!

First off - take a deep breath!  You should have just received an email about doing your case history. Posting pictures of your gelding and the swelling in his sheath may help us help you.  Information on how to do that is here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

So at this point you're not really sure if your gelding is PPID or not but he's in the age range where it could be an issue and the loss of topline is one possible sign that he is, but only bloodwork can answer that question for sure.  Information on having that done is in the "Diagnosis" section below. If he is PPID the only way to treat that is with Prascend or the generic pergolide. 

At this point there are some simple diet changes you can make that may help him if he is PPID, even without having the test results back. He may do better without the alfalfa as some horses are sensitive to it, even though it's usually low in ESC + starch so if you can find Ontario Dehy Timothy Balanced cubes which are low ESC+starch and do not need additional minerals to balance them that would probably be a better option for him.  We also do not recommend soy bean meal (you can read a bit about that here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/206570)  but you can use soy hulls or soy pellets instead. You can also use beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed) as a carrier for any additional additives - those are outlined in the emergency diet below and can be helpful even as part of a regular diet.

Depending on his size and current weight/ideal weight he may need more or less feed overall but that's where the case history will help us help you.

There's a lot of information in the following email so get comfortable, grab a cup of your favorite beverage and be prepared to have more questions after reading.




O


Allison
 

Hi Sherry,

Thank you for the reply. I am unable to do a full case history until Monday when I have access to a desktop computer. I will read and reread the info you just posted.  I did a quick skim tho and noticed that fat is recommended to be lowered. Is that for all IR horses or just the fat ones? He is not laminitis at all, and I feel he needs weight as hes dropping currently.

Vet is on his way for blood tests. Will have results end of next week.

--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Allison
 

One more thing...the hay cubes are all a mix of tim/alf here. No other options 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Allison,

Feed won't change his topline unless he has a calorie or protein deficit and is losing weight overall.  Loss limited to the topline only is more like vitamin E, PPID or an age effect. The first step to resolving this is an accurate diagnosis.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I should add that chronic lung disease can also lead to topline loss - but you would know if he had that!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Alison,

I too am dealing with presumed penile squamous cell carcinoma on my IR boy, since 2015 when they were found to be fairly large cauliflower-type growths.  What has worked well for us are twice yearly exams and cryotherapy if needed to remove growths and lesions.  Regular cryotherapy has led to smaller and fewer lesions with every visit; some years he only had 1 treatment because I couldn't source liquid nitrogen for it.  My vet cannot travel here with the liquid nitrogen so I buy it from a local welding shop.  After the first session where she sedated him fully so he was lying down at her clinic, now she sedates him standing at my house and uses a small cryogun to remove as much as she can.  On her last visit here she said there was so little to remove it wasn't worth the discomfort to my horse to bother and we will reassess at the next appointment.

I firmly believe that getting his IR under better control in the last few years has helped immensely, as might better control of PPID if that is applicable in your case.  His sheath is much cleaner (less smegma) with his IR better controlled.  We have also dealt with swollen sheath, a symptom of his IR combined with lack of movement in our case.

I hope that helps.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Allison
 

Wow thank you Kirsten! My vet has said he’s not familiar with treating it and is not super enthusiastic about even attempting to. Refused to even try a biopsy. Guelph will do remote consults, but I am not getting the sense that he wants to participate in that sort of thing. And Guelph is 8+ hours from me :(  how hard is cryotherapy to do? Not saying I would attempt it on my own haha but trying to gauge how specialized a treatment it is, to see if I could talk him into trying to learn it.

Hes on his second round of antibiotics but the swelling is only about 40% diminished and we only have one day left of the antibiotics. Which is what is making me think it’s not infection that’s causing the swelling at this point.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


TERRI JENNINGS
 

Hi Allison,
I haven’t had to deal with penile SCC but my 27 year old paint (Benjamin) had SCC diagnosed on his eyelid a year after he was donated to our program. He was 14 at the time. There are many different kinds of treatment. He has had cryotherapy, surgical removal, radioactive seeds implanted and most recently topical chemo. The biggest problem with SCC (as I understand it) is that it appears to only be on the surface of the area but as it grows it grows inward in a fingerlike pattern. So it does not have a smooth edge like a lump. That makes advanced SCC difficult to remove. The cryotherapy worked well in the beginning of this journey because we caught it early. However, the scar tissue became a problem after multiple treatments in such a small area.  I’m not sure if that is just because of the location or not. Maybe it wouldn’t be an issue if it were in his sheath or penis. The radioactive seeds were implanted at the UC Davis vet school and gave him the longest duration for not needing treatment. They were implanted and we went home. He looked like hell as it sloughed off but with banamine on board he did not seem to be in any pain and had no long term effects. The lesion disappeared and scarring was minimal.  He did not need treatment in that location again (it’s been 5 years). He did get a new lesion which we decided to treat with topical chemo. I was nervous about putting him under for any of the other procedures they suggested. The chemo has kept the lesion from growing but has not removed it entirely. Quite frankly it was a pain to have to administer 3-4 times daily for weeks. I have regretted not having that lesion surgically removed as now another year has passed and I probably should repeat the chemo but I’m dreading it. It’s on my calendar to start on October 1st.  At this point (he’s 27), SCC will not likely be his end and will not likely create painful or large lesions in the time he has left. Benjamin is UC Davis’ longest living and longest treated patients. They are supposedly using him for a case study and they have been doing a longitudinal mortality study that he is a part of. About once a year a vet student calls and sheepishly asks if he is still living and requests photos of upper and lower eyelids.   The opthomologist there says that his longevity with SCC is because his treatments began early and he had regular follow-ups. The addition of having an oncologist on the case was fantastic.   The best advice that I could give you is to treat him as early as possible. If you have a veterinary school nearby call them. The options don’t have to be super expensive and they identified the SCC without a biopsy and confirmed after removal. The topical chemo was $150 and I have enough to do 3 more cycles. You may even find an oncologist that is willing to advise your vet on topical chemo based on photos or a scraping.  The chemo was a pain to apply so often each day but the application was simple and he had no side effects. 

One more tidbit of information... the vet who initially performed the cryotherapy bought his equipment from a gynecologist who was retiring.  They use the same equipment to remove cervical lesions and genital warts. So a local gynecologist might be a sour source of liquid nitrogen  


I hope you find someone willing to help your boy. 

Terri
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Allison
 

Hi Terri, thank you for your information. My local vet is unfortunately not very cooperative and the closest Vet school is 8-9 hrs away. Good tidbit about the local sourcing of nitrogen!! I'm going to contact another vet today who sometimes comes to our area to see if he has any experience treating.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Allison
 

An update to the swollen sheath issue...

Took him out for a couple of hours trail riding yesterday. W/T/C hills, etc. Came home and the swelling had diminished from estimated 75% to 20%. HUGE difference. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


celestinefarm
 

Allison, just to help you out regarding the Timothy Balance cubes, here is the link to Ontario Dehy. Aurelio Henriques is the president of the company and a long time member here. You can call or email Ontario Dehy at the contact numbers at the bottom of the link page and they will help you with getting the cubes. Aurelio has helped many a member here get cubes years ago when they were very limited in distribution.  they are much more widely distributed and availble. He and the company are very responsive and will do whatever he can to get you access to the cubes.

-- http://www.ontariodehy.com/index.html#footer01-a

Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Allison
 

Thank you Dawn!  I have left a message.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Allison
 

Unfortunately I was told that I could not get the cubes in my area :( 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


ferne fedeli
 

How strange!  I thought they were located in your province, with Ontario in their name.  Usually Aurelia is always so helpful.  Maybe something to do with your local stores?
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Allison,

You could ask your vet to contact mine for more info on the cryotherapy.  I will private message her name and the name of her clinic to you to share with him, she is also a member here but probably has not seen your post.  It is definitely a veterinary procedure because sedation and pain control is needed but having watched the process several times it does not appear to be complicated.  The first time she did it we trailered to her (6hrs away), and spent 2 nights there so she could do a full sedation.  After that she said she was comfortable trying it at our home without laying him out on the ground if I could source the liquid N, so now she does it on her bi-annual visit to our area.

Movement always helped my boy's swollen sheath, too.  I think have a photo of it at it's worst in our album.  It was so swollen he was having trouble peeing.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Allison
 

Yes they are in my province but Ontario is a big place. They are located a good 8 hours from me. I'm in a bit of a dead zone when it comes to feed, vet care, and competent farriers 🤦‍♀️ 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Allison
 

Thank you Kirsten. I spoke to a vet today who has done cryotherapy and he agreed for me to send him the pics I took and see what he could do to help. Hes located quite far from me but sometimes comes here for dental work. When my vet calls me back with the test results I will ask him if he would be willing to learn how to do it. Its super frustrating because I'm at his mercy really. The travelling vet doesn't want to do it unless I have someone who can do post care treatment since he wont be able to, due to distance. So I'm still pushing and searching for help.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Bonnie
 

Where are you located, Alison?
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Allison
 

Sault ste Marie 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020