Feed recommendations please
Hello, first post.
I have a 23 yr old gelding with suspected penile Squamous cell carcinoma. I say suspected because the only vet I have available to me will not do a biopsy to confirm. So we are dealing with that. 3 weeks ago my boy presented with a swollen sheath. Suspected infection, again just visually diagnosed (temp was normal, no swabs done by vet) given a 6 day round of antibiotics, told to flush daily with salt water and put on low dose previcox for pain. Hes still on pasture but is losing condition on his topline, although hes in regular light work. Swelling diminished greatly and we finished the antibiotics. I went away for three days came home to a swollen sheath twice as bad as the first time. Vet dispensed another 6 day round of same antibiotics. I resumed the salt water flushes and am now cold hosing also. We are on day 4 of antibiotics and swelling is still very pronounced. Just giving you all the background info I can. The idea of testing for PPID has been brought up by another vet online. So that's next on the agenda. Heres my question after all that preamble... Is there a feed available in Ontario that would be suitable for him? Hes on Madbarn Omneity, 2 lbs of soaked alf/tim cubes, 1 lb soy bean meal and pasture each day. Soon to switch from pasture to hay, and will also be switching to a custom madbarn vit/min to balance our iron/copper/zinc, as our iron count doubled over last year. But his topline is bothersome. I want to supplement him with more calories but stay low sugar. His hay analysis is under 10% for esc and starch. I have limited feed options here. Brooks, tribute, masterfeeds, buckeye are about it. Or I can do a custom whatever I dont care if I have to concoct it myself in the feed room. Help! -- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Allison, Welcome to the group! First off - take a deep breath! You should have just received an email about doing your case history. Posting pictures of your gelding and the swelling in his sheath may help us help you. Information on how to do that is here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help So at this point you're not really sure if your gelding is PPID or not but he's in the age range where it could be an issue and the loss of topline is one possible sign that he is, but only bloodwork can answer that question for sure. Information on having that done is in the "Diagnosis" section below. If he is PPID the only way to treat that is with Prascend or the generic pergolide. At this point there are some simple diet changes you can make that may help him if he is PPID, even without having the test results back. He may do better without the alfalfa as some horses are sensitive to it, even though it's usually low in ESC + starch so if you can find Ontario Dehy
Timothy Balanced cubes which are low ESC+starch and do not need
additional minerals to balance them that would probably be a better option for him. We also do not recommend soy bean
meal (you can read a bit about that here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/206570) but you can use soy hulls or soy pellets instead. You can also use beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed) as a carrier for any additional additives - those are outlined in the emergency diet below and can be helpful even as part of a regular diet. Depending on his size and current weight/ideal weight he may need more or less feed overall but that's where the case history will help us help you. There's a lot of information in the following email so get comfortable, grab a cup of your favorite beverage and be prepared to have more questions after reading. The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message
with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any
trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Hi Sherry,
Thank you for the reply. I am unable to do a full case history until Monday when I have access to a desktop computer. I will read and reread the info you just posted. I did a quick skim tho and noticed that fat is recommended to be lowered. Is that for all IR horses or just the fat ones? He is not laminitis at all, and I feel he needs weight as hes dropping currently. Vet is on his way for blood tests. Will have results end of next week. -- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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One more thing...the hay cubes are all a mix of tim/alf here. No other options
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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Allison,
Feed won't change his topline unless he has a calorie or protein deficit and is losing weight overall. Loss limited to the topline only is more like vitamin E, PPID or an age effect. The first step to resolving this is an accurate diagnosis. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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I should add that chronic lung disease can also lead to topline loss - but you would know if he had that!
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Hi Alison,
I too am dealing with presumed penile squamous cell carcinoma on my IR boy, since 2015 when they were found to be fairly large cauliflower-type growths. What has worked well for us are twice yearly exams and cryotherapy if needed to remove growths and lesions. Regular cryotherapy has led to smaller and fewer lesions with every visit; some years he only had 1 treatment because I couldn't source liquid nitrogen for it. My vet cannot travel here with the liquid nitrogen so I buy it from a local welding shop. After the first session where she sedated him fully so he was lying down at her clinic, now she sedates him standing at my house and uses a small cryogun to remove as much as she can. On her last visit here she said there was so little to remove it wasn't worth the discomfort to my horse to bother and we will reassess at the next appointment. I firmly believe that getting his IR under better control in the last few years has helped immensely, as might better control of PPID if that is applicable in your case. His sheath is much cleaner (less smegma) with his IR better controlled. We have also dealt with swollen sheath, a symptom of his IR combined with lack of movement in our case. I hope that helps. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Wow thank you Kirsten! My vet has said he’s not familiar with treating it and is not super enthusiastic about even attempting to. Refused to even try a biopsy. Guelph will do remote consults, but I am not getting the sense that he wants to participate in that sort of thing. And Guelph is 8+ hours from me :( how hard is cryotherapy to do? Not saying I would attempt it on my own haha but trying to gauge how specialized a treatment it is, to see if I could talk him into trying to learn it.
Hes on his second round of antibiotics but the swelling is only about 40% diminished and we only have one day left of the antibiotics. Which is what is making me think it’s not infection that’s causing the swelling at this point. -- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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TERRI JENNINGS
Hi Allison, One more tidbit of information... the vet who initially performed the cryotherapy bought his equipment from a gynecologist who was retiring. They use the same equipment to remove cervical lesions and genital warts. So a local gynecologist might be a sour source of liquid nitrogen
Terri |
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Hi Terri, thank you for your information. My local vet is unfortunately not very cooperative and the closest Vet school is 8-9 hrs away. Good tidbit about the local sourcing of nitrogen!! I'm going to contact another vet today who sometimes comes to our area to see if he has any experience treating.
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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An update to the swollen sheath issue...
Took him out for a couple of hours trail riding yesterday. W/T/C hills, etc. Came home and the swelling had diminished from estimated 75% to 20%. HUGE difference. -- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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celestinefarm
Allison, just to help you out regarding the Timothy Balance cubes, here is the link to Ontario Dehy. Aurelio Henriques is the president of the company and a long time member here. You can call or email Ontario Dehy at the contact numbers at the bottom of the link page and they will help you with getting the cubes. Aurelio has helped many a member here get cubes years ago when they were very limited in distribution. they are much more widely distributed and availble. He and the company are very responsive and will do whatever he can to get you access to the cubes.
-- http://www.ontariodehy.com/index.html#footer01-a Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History |
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Thank you Dawn! I have left a message.
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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Unfortunately I was told that I could not get the cubes in my area :(
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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ferne fedeli
How strange! I thought they were located in your province, with Ontario in their name. Usually Aurelia is always so helpful. Maybe something to do with your local stores?
-- Ferne Fedeli Magic & Jack 2007 No. California
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Hi Allison,
You could ask your vet to contact mine for more info on the cryotherapy. I will private message her name and the name of her clinic to you to share with him, she is also a member here but probably has not seen your post. It is definitely a veterinary procedure because sedation and pain control is needed but having watched the process several times it does not appear to be complicated. The first time she did it we trailered to her (6hrs away), and spent 2 nights there so she could do a full sedation. After that she said she was comfortable trying it at our home without laying him out on the ground if I could source the liquid N, so now she does it on her bi-annual visit to our area. Movement always helped my boy's swollen sheath, too. I think have a photo of it at it's worst in our album. It was so swollen he was having trouble peeing. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Yes they are in my province but Ontario is a big place. They are located a good 8 hours from me. I'm in a bit of a dead zone when it comes to feed, vet care, and competent farriers 🤦♀️
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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Thank you Kirsten. I spoke to a vet today who has done cryotherapy and he agreed for me to send him the pics I took and see what he could do to help. Hes located quite far from me but sometimes comes here for dental work. When my vet calls me back with the test results I will ask him if he would be willing to learn how to do it. Its super frustrating because I'm at his mercy really. The travelling vet doesn't want to do it unless I have someone who can do post care treatment since he wont be able to, due to distance. So I'm still pushing and searching for help.
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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Bonnie
Where are you located, Alison?
-- Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
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Sault ste Marie
-- Allison in Ontario 2020 |
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