Squamous Cell Carcinoma


Allison
 

I'm starting a new thread on this since the info in the other thread is mixed in with stuff about the Prascend veil.

What I thought was the Prascend veil, I now believe to be due to the raging infection my poor horse is fighting. Second opinion vet said that the tissue is sloughing off the tip of his penis now, he's too far gone for cryotherapy, and my options are only surgical at this point IF we can get that infection under control. 

I free lunged him in the round pen last night for 30 mins at a decent trot. Swelling decreased 50%, he refused to drop for cleaning, even a little bit. Bleeding again when I tried to clean him. His energy levels are improving, less resistant to move out when asked, and is back to eating normally. Urinated in his stall after the lunging/washing, but it was just a trickle. He's obviously still urinating from waaaaay up inside, no dropping even a little.

This morning he refused to finish his food, but I suspect it's the beet pulp he's not happy with, as it looks like he got so far, then started spitting food out. Bless his heart, the little fusspot. So I'm not overreacting just yet, I'm going to feed him again tonight sans beet pulp and see how his Royal Highness receives that.

But the swelling is back again at about 80% of the intensity we were at on Sunday morning. The edema on his belly is at about half what it was, and has remained stable for the last 24 hrs. Also, the perimeter of the edema has reduced away from the area of the opening of the sheath.

*Sigh* :(

So...do I try the frankincense oil topically at this point, before we see what the infection will do? I feel like my attempts at cleaning are only irritating the area further, but what else can I do? I am going to try with the catheter tip syringe and hose again tonight after work. Lunge for 30 mins, wash, cold hose 10 mins, lunge again for 30 mins. Try to get.that.swelling.down. 

If this is beyond the scope of this message board, I apologize. I'm searching for answers from anywhere I can get them. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Allison,

At this point I don't think you have anything to lose by trying the essential oil.  You can dilute it in some carrier oil to avoid further irritation. I think I mentioned my friend uses Young Living Oils which is expensive but of a known quality.



celestinefarm
 

Has this horse actually been diagnosed with Penile squamous cell carcinoma?  I've gone back through the thread and I don't see a diagnosis, just that it's suspected.  Is there no way to definitively diagnose this type of cancer?  Additionally, Allison has said he has a "raging infection". Has any type of lab work been done to determine if he is indeed infected and with what?  And if he has an infection, why wouldn't the vet who saw him last  Rx some type of antibiotics, antifungals, etc. to treat the infection that would be appropriate for whatever the infection is and for a horse?

I don't understand why there is not a definitive diagnosis nor a treatment recommendation given for this horse by veterinarians who have examined it. 


--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


 

I’m with Dawn on this but was going to suggest using cannabis oil topically, preferably containing some THC.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Allison
 

Dawn, trust me, your frustration is nothing compared to mine.

No lab work has been done. Local vet refused. Second opinion vet told me before he came that cryo was an option and that he was going to take a biopsy. Then he gets to my farm and says he can't biopsy the horse will bleed too much. Couldn't get the horse to drop with Ace. Tells me work the horse, cold hose, and I'll come back later if the swelling goes down. So I round pen him 30 mins on (lazy trot), 10 mins off (cold hosing inside sheath) for 2.5 hours continuously. Get swelling waaaaay down. Vet comes back, shoots him up with Ace and immediately tries to get him to drop. I don't really think he even had time for the Ace to work, TBH. Said he's in a hurry can't wait, has to go.

Even tho I told him multiple times that I cannot afford surgery, he acted surprised that it's not an option. !!!!!!!!!! Dammit, I'm trying and fighting so hard but I'm getting nowhere.

Local vet has prescribed Sulfadiazine Sodium/Trimethoprim 400/80mg/ml twice, 6 days each round, 2 doses of 20ml each. Infection returned.

Travelling vet gave him a shot of Borjal 36mls and put him back on the same SST at a dosage of 25mls twice daily. 

I want to SCREAM. I'm trying so hard to figure this out, remember everything I'm supposed to ask, and not go bankrupt in the process. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Frances C.
 

Just wondering if something real slippery like Vagisil or hyaluronic acid  gel would make it easier for him to drop. You could smear your hands with it then give it a go. I watched a TV episode of Dr. Pol on NatGeo where he worked on a steer. He redirected the utherea further up then cut off the rest of the offending member - looked like simple surgery.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Allison
 

The vet used lubricant both times that he tried. No go. 

I just got Frankincense and Jojoba oil from the Health Foods store. Going to look up the mixture ratio now. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


celestinefarm
 

Allison, I'm sorry about your vet situation, that has to be so frustrating. Good that he has antibiotics on board. When you said infection, do you mean urinary tract infection?

At some point, this horse may need to be catherized to allow him to urinate. If all you are seeing are dribbles, his urethra may be partially blocked or the bladder may not be functioning properly.  Is he inside a stall where you can find wet shavings from urination? Treating the penile carcinoma should be secondary to the urination issues right now.  Once you get the infection under control and get some normal urine stream back, you can concentrate on the treatment of the carcinoma. 

Horses have undergone penile amputation and recovered well and go on to live useful lives. If current cancer treatments are feasible for you , amputation might be an option. But right now, establishing normal urine flow even if it means catherization for a period of time is where you might need to be. 

Hang in there Allison, you will be surprised to find how many of us have dealt with stuff that might seem off the wall or you might feel alone in dealing with. We've likely been there and can provide you with suggestions. 

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Allison
 

Thank you Dawn. I'm not trying to be a hysterical female. I'm just really really scared and exhausted from spinning my wheels so hard. 

You're absolutely right, the infection is #1 problem right now. Honestly, he was urinating fine before the major swelling, albeit more frequently. But the swelling is coming from infection, which is coming from not dropping properly, which is exacerbating the infection, which is inflaming the swelling, which is interfering with the urination...and around we go. 

So...infection. Aside from exercise, cold hosing, surgical soap, frankincense oil...anything else I can do?
--

Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Allison
 

Sorry Dawn just realized I didn't fully answer your questions...

I don't know if it's a urinary tract infection, or infection caused by the sloughing tissue from the end of his penis. What I can feel in there are large granular chunks that are somewhat loosely attached. If you look at my photo album you'll see an example of a chunk that I pinched off on Sunday afternoon. I strongly suspect that the dribbling is because he's urinating from way up inside his sheath, instead of externally or at least somewhat extended. And that is not helping the bacteria or infection situation going on up in there.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


celestinefarm
 

The chunks you are taking out look to me like calcium precipitate that has been lying in the folds of the sheath. If you watch a horse urinate, the end of the urine stream becomes very cloudy, opaque actually and has what looks like partially dissolved solids in it. If I had to guess , those chunks are the dissolved solids that are not being expelled outside of the sheath because he is not extending his penis to urinate. My stallions penis's always have some shreds of dead , exfoliating skin on them that I remove every time I get the chance. Looking at the photos, I'm wondering if the inflamed skin on his penis is simply because it keeps sitting in a pool of unexpelled urine and bacteria, dead skin, etc.  

Could something have happened to him that he has some nerve damage not allowing the penis to relax and drop?  Has he been ultrasounded for bladder stones? 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Allison
 

No those chunks are definitely necrotic flesh. The one I pinched off is bloody inside. I'll take another pic and post it to the album later. It's quite possible the skin is inflamed from the urine exposure. No he has not been ultrasounded. I can't even get a proper culture or biopsy FGS. Ultrasound is definitely not on the table. I do not think he has had an injury or nerve damage but I don't know. Maybe I should try getting a Chiro out.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I can't be sure of course but that chunk looks like a SCC growth that was peeled off.  They have a bit of a bloody and narrow attachment point.  It's a bit bigger than anything that came off my guy, but not much bigger.  It may not be related to the problem with swelling and dropping though, it might have just come off because of the cleaning and flushing you are doing.  If the antibiotics are not helping get an infection under control and bringing down the swelling, could you ask for a different prescription to try?

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Allison
 

Yes I will ask for a different antibiotic.

Got him lunged cold hosed and washed tonight and brought the swelling way down again. 2 hrs later it was back at 50% 😔 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Nancy Kitchen
 

Allison
I am only a member here but I wanted to reach out to you and say, breathe.  I can only imagine your frustration level at this point.  Try very hard not to feel lost just because you don't have a supporting vet to tell you what the next step should be.  Many people here have had to improvise, overcome and adapt in order to help our equine friends.  I think you are on the right track to help your horse.  I have a couple long stories of being in your shoes and going thru many many many vets.  I have no experience in penile cancers etc, tho. There are many here that have good information and are all good people wanting to help you.  They were here when I needed support and I still have my horse because of this group. All I can offer is an ear but if you listen to your horse, he'll tell you what you need to know.   All the very best to you and your best friend.
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:


Allison
 

Thank you so much Nancy. Your words comfort me a little. My mind is racing constantly over this, it's hard not to become obsessive.

Last night was the first night he tried to kick out when I was messing around with him down there. I don't blame him poor boy. After our lunge/cold water hoseout/lunge/wash with soap/cold water hose out...I put him in his stall for a couple of hours to eat and chill. Then tried rinsing him out again with just plain water to make sure I got all the soap. That's when the kicking out started. He'd had enough. Then I applied Special Formula 17900 in there as best I could. I have 2 tubes of it left so I'm going to stick with it until the end of this round of antibiotics and then switch to the frankincense oil mix. This is the ingredients list of the SF:

MEDICINAL INGREDIENTS: Penicillin G Procaine 100 000 I.U., Dihydrostreptomycin (as dihydrostreptomycin sulfate) 100 mg, Novobiocin (as novobiocin sodium) 150 mg, Polymyxin B Sulfate 50 000 I.U., Hydrocortisone Acetate 20 mg, Hydrocortisone Sodium Succinate 12.5 mg., per 10 mL.

--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Allison
 

Message received this morning from vet #2:

"Your next step is surgical intervention or humane euthanasia. The ultimate reality is that regardless of whether we can get the infection under control or not, if you don't go the next step with amputation then we are wasting our time. As we discussed, the idea of treating to reduce the swelling and try to control the infection is only a short term fix at best. The infection is the secondary problem. Without fixing the primary problem the end result will not change. Sonny is in significant discomfort and will stay that way and only get worse until the primary problem is resolved.....even if we can get the infection under control. It is very obvious that you care deeply for sonny but we really need to consider quality of life. Please take emotions off the table,and make a decision that puts Sonny's best interest in mind whether that is surgical intervention or humane euthanasia. He is suffering and it will only get worse. "
----
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


NANCY BOTTE
 

Hi Allison - 
I have a Fjord that years ago started bleeding when he urinated.
Longs story short - he has a mass in his urethrae - we tried many
methods to get the bleeding to stop. But finally a vet said to
try Cytoxan. It worked! He was on it for years and it didn't
seem to bother him.  I wonder if something like that would
help?
We got the drug from Canada - way cheaper...
Thinking of you!
Nancy B 




--
Nancy B
NH
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Twister 


Carol
 

It's been a while since I've commented since my Cushings horse passed on years ago but this caught my attention. My thoughts are with you.  

 When I had a bone infection and was scheduled for amputation because the antibiotics weren't killing the infection, I found some research on silver killing stubborn infections and dosed myself that night. Infection was gone next morning and MRI showed proof and we did not have to amputate. I still have my foot 5 years later. Vets can prescribe silver in a compound with sulfer. Or you can get colloidal silver online or even at some stores like wal-mart. My vet prescribed silver sulfadiazine for one of my horses when she tore up her knee and had a mess of a wound. The other antibiotics had poor results. The silver got the results for us. 
Also IP-6 has shown results against cancer. IP-6 is a form of inositol, a natural sweetener found in grains. 

On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 9:52 PM Allison <morningstar_acres@...> wrote:
Yes I will ask for a different antibiotic.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020


Allison
 

Nancy and Carol, thank you!! I'm including these in my list of questions when I call my vet. I'm going to keep trying to get him interested in treating my horse, and am going to see if he will consult with the hospital at Guelph. I am also waiting to hear back from the surgeon I was referred to so I can ask some questions. I'm very concerned with the impact of surgery on a horse his age. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641