APF Primer for Newbies


Lida
 

Hello everyone!

I have a 10 pack of prascend, but wanted to get the APF before starting. I am probably overthinking it, but I was trying to find out the basics and in my searching, I could not find it. There are a TON of posts about this and they are ALL over the place. I get that everyone situation is different, but it would be helpful for newbies to have a starting point. And it would be great if this could be included in the Files section. If it is already there, let me know. I saw the APF folder, but it did not have what I was looking for.

Questions
  • Which version of the APF (regular, Pro, or Plus) is recommended and why?
  • What dosage should you give? I've seen everything from 1ml to 8ml posted in this group.
    I tried to find this info on Auburn Labs site and did not even see any info there about dosage. I sent them an email. Maybe I am just missing it.
  • When should you start it? A few days before starting prascend? The same day?
  • How long do you need to give it?
  • What are you looking for as far as adjusting the dosage up/down or stopping APF?

Thanks everyone for your help. I know this has come up many, many times, but after at least an hour of searching, reading posts, and articles, I have not seen anything that lays it out simply for a newbie.

--
Lida
Indiana
September 2020
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lida%20and%20Doc


 

Hi Lida,
Your concerns seem valid to me.  I always hesitate trying to answer questions on APF, even though I’ve used bottles of it, because I’m not sure there there are any absolute answers to your questions.  I agree that an APF Primer for Newbies is in order.  


I began with APF Pro because I felt my horse needed ‘extra’ help.  At that time there was no Plus.  Most people use Regular because it’s a significant expense even for that and it does the job.

I, too, did not know what dose to give so I contacted Auburn Labs and I think they told me 8ml for my oversized horse.  For smaller versions, I have used as little as 5 ml.  I have no idea how much it actually takes to get the job done. 

I started it 2-3 days before adjusting pergolide.  However, in one instance I started it after noticing the veil.  The veil lifted but I don’t know if it was the APF or just that it would have lifted regardless.

I actually kept my horse on it for quite awhile but I usually tell people to keep them on it until they reach the dose they are aiming for and then a few days after.  I have nothing to base that on other than other people’s experience.
If everything goes according to plan, you will not notice anything resembling a veil (loss of appetite, dopiness) as you titrate the dose up to your goal.  If a veil generally starts 2-5 days after starting pergolide (2 days, in my experience), I would think you would be safe discontinuing it 2-5 days after reaching the goal.  The initial goal might not be enough so, if you decide on a pergolide increase, you would want to start the process again.  I usually didn’t need APF for these increases but each horse responds differently.   If APF doesn’t prevent a veil, I’m not sure that more APF would help

When I switched Logo from pergolide to cabergoline, I did not pretreat with APF, rationalizing that he was already on such a large dose of pergolide, he would not need it.  I was wrong and he had a very dramatic veil.  When I started him on APF, I told my barn helpers I was giving him a ‘magic potion‘ as that’s literally what it seems to be.  Magic is a bit outside of science, or at least science hasn’t caught up with it yet, and that’s a bit what it seems like with APF.  If you don’t do it correctly, and I have no idea what that would be, the veil generally dissipates on its own or you can stop the pergolide until the horse appears normal again and then try again.  That is generally the exception rather than the rule.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I can tell you that this helps me too because I had issues with the veil with both Summer and Vinnie. And each were a little different in their response to APF. 

Summer after failing to start APF (regular) on the initial attempt ended up going off all her supplements and would only eat hay. Then I stopped pergolide and after putting her on APF and waiting 10 days to restart pergolide she got loose stools after restarting on a super low dose of 0.125. So I added absorb-all as per Dr. Kellons recommendation and slowly titrateed up to her dose of 0.5. Knock wood she is doing great, and I am only giving 6mls  of APF per day 1 time and my goal is to see if I can taper her off APF now.

Vinnie i learned from Summer, started him on APF before beginning pergolide, but he developed the veil after titrating up to 0.5 from a dose of 0.25 after he was on that dose for about 10 days. He stopped eating his AM mashy.  So back down we went to 0.25 and increased APF from 3ml 2x per day to 5ml 2x per day and he slowly has started eating his am mash again. 

I just ordered APF pro based on this thread (thank you) to see if that helps him when I titrate back up to 0.5.

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


LJ Friedman
 

I just started Jesse and apf on my way to bring him back to compounded pergolide . I’ll be using 10 ML once a day for five days and then start the compound pergolide  again at day 5  and continue for 5 more days  .  genius.  I just thought I might as well continue the apf after the start of the compounded pergolide   
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Bonnie Eddy
 

So which one is best, APF or APF Pro?
Going to start 2 new ones on the PPID journey.
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


 

Bonnie, my guess is that it doesn’t matter which you use to prevent a pergolide veil.  The Regular seems to work fine.  The others have additional ingredients which are apparently not critical for our purposes.  When I first learned of APF, my horse had already been started on pergolide, with a minimal veil.  A few years later, Logo went through a bad fall because the rise got ahead of me and I was using it as an aid in his recovery.  

A question Lida might ask later would be about administration.  I always give it by oral syringe.  It has a slightly unusual taste, like a tonic.  Logo loved it, which had a lot to do with my continuing to give it to him.  Some of my other guys think it tastes nasty and I would not consider adding it to their feed.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Buzz
 

Hi Bonnie! My horse has recently been diagnoaed with PPID and Im still learning! However, I found the APF has made a dramatic difference with my mare. I initially started her on .5mg pergolide and no APF as I followed my vets suggestion.  She is an OTTB and super picky! Immediately she went off her food and started dropping wt.  I was beginning to be really worried with winter coming. I decided to call Auburn and spoke to a very helpful vet who reassured me APF is very safe. He said some people start at 10 ml and work down til they find the horse is leveling off with the "vail" and some start off with 2 or 3ml and increase until they see improvement. Also, I used the APF (green bottle) initially as a friend had some available. After talking with the Auburn vet, I ordered the APF Pro as my mare has a history of ulcers and he suggested that for her situation.  It is pricey, but it really helped my old gal to feel better. I am gradually titrating up every 4 or 5 days as I increase her pergolide dosage in .25mg increments. It really seems to be a balancing act to support them while adjusting to the pergolide. Good luck with your horse. Hope this helped you a little!

--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Lida
 

Thanks everyone for the info so far.

I am still not sure where to start. I want to order APF today. When I go to Valley vet the regular APF is actually more expensive than the APF Pro which has me confused. Is the dosage for APF Pro higher or something? Everyone is saying it is more expensive, but that is not what I am observing. Since I can't find dosing info from the manufacturer website, it is hard to know why everyone is saying the Pro is so much more expensive. Even purchasing from Auburn Labs directly, the difference is only $5, which does not seem significant, which is why I am wondering if you have to give more of Pro than the regular to get the same effect? My horse has a history of ulcers as well, though he has not had visible signs of them for many, many years. I think he has definitely mellowed out in his old age. So maybe the APF Pro won't hurt especially if I can get it at a lower price than the regular APF?

I wonder if it would be helpful to do some type of survey as far as dosing to see what is the best recommendation for a starting point or what has worked best for most horses. Even in this thread, I am seeing posts from 2 or 3 ml to 10 ml. As I said, I know every horse will be different, but it would be helpful to know where to start and then adjust from there. Is it best to just start a high dose to avoid the veil. Or better to start lower and adjust up?

To me, not wanting to eat, being lethargic are signs of not feeling good. So I would rather prevent that from happening at all, but I also don't want to throw money away.

Thanks everyone!

--
Lida
Indiana
September 2020
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lida%20and%20Doc


Lorna Cane
 

Lida, why not talk to Dr. Van Noy,at Auburn Labs. He founded the company,and is very approachable,or at least he was years ago when I spoke to him.
 877.661.3505    

It says this on their site....."APF Pro was introduced to address the specific issues facing the top equine athletes – immune support, gastric health, muscle building, energy, endurance, and recovery." 

But I know that doesn't answer your questions.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


 

Lida, I’m not sure you can assume that more expensive equals better here.  Valley Vet might be trying to free up some shelf space by pricing something which hasn’t sold well low enough to move it.  The Auburn website has an increasing price from Regular, through Pro to Plus.  Auburn also states 

APF Pro combines APF – the only natural herbal formula backed by university-level research- with advanced muscle-building and gastric health benefits to deliver the most effective nutritional formula to support your horse’s health and performance.”

which to me means it contains APF Regular with additional ingredients.  If you feel your horse needs those for other reasons, buy Pro.  If you can get a better price on Pro than Regular, buy Pro.  

I’m sure, when Auburn gets back to you, they will suggest a dose.  What they base that on isn’t obvious to me.  I honestly can’t think of a way to run a controlled study on what the ‘correct’ dose might be.  Every horse responds differently, both to pergolide and APF, and each situation will be different for the same horse.  When you start pergolide, your horse may or may not show a veil.  When you increase the dose, the horse may or may not need more APF.  There seems to be a wide range of effective doses.  You can run a survey but this thread has given those who were interested a chance to weigh in.

My experience with the veil did not suggest discomfort but, rather a sense of being ‘out to lunch’.  Of course, that was only my experience and my interpretation of what I saw in my horse.  I’ve seen some describe it as ‘stoned’ but others were more alarmed by what they saw and discontinued pergolide to restart slightly differently.

My advice to you would be to use Pro at the higher dose if that’s an affordable decision for you.  I would generally look around to see whose price was best.  I don’t see many sources right now but Valley Vet definitely looks best as long as shipping doesn’t affect that.  I also usually purchased a mid sized bottle for added cost savings.  It seems to keep well.

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


LJ Friedman
 

just an fyi,  most companies carry the pro.  usually i dont see the regular version.  ive always used the pro, especially bf because of availability, etc
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


 

Recommended dosage size on valley vet site is about 4 times greater on the Pro ...
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Diane Ogle
 

I've always used APF Plus.  My guys just seem to do better on it.  Thriving Pets $139.95 for 12 oz, free shipping.  

Diane Ogle, Alya (PPID, IR), Blue (PPID)
     Rowdy, Molly and Mango, over the Bridge
Fort Bragg, CA
Feb 2011


Buzz
 

Hi Martha!  I have been in touch before and you were so helpful in getting me APF help and how to administer it. I have Dame headed in the right direction.  We are up to 10ml of APF and she is on .75 mg of pergolide.  My question is, I am scared we are going to run out before my order will come in.  I really didn't expect to go up to 10ml, but with her being so super sensitive, I guess I'm not suprised. Therefore, I have gone almost through a 4 oz bottle.  I have 2 orders in, one 12 oz and a 4 oz, just to try to cover!  If I don't receive it I am afraid she will back slide!  Should I just cut back on the dose of APF and hold at the pergolide dose? Will I need to start again all over.  The goal was to reach 1mg. Thanks so much!!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


 

Hi Marsha,  I’m not clear on how you are deciding the APF needs an increase.  I think if I were in your position, I would cut the APF back to 8 ml and keep the Prascend at 0.75 mg until your new bottles arrive.  Can you get any information from the supplier as to when to expect it?  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


lynnc66
 

Hi Lida,

Thank you for posting this, as I'm planning to start 2 mini horses on APF soon, and this thread has been very helpful.

A question for those with experience giving the APF -- I'm wondering if anyone gives it in a carrier, rather than syringing it orally?
--
Many thanks,

Lynn Cox
Kern County, CA

May, 2007 

Bella Case History   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lynn%20and%20Bella
Photos, Bella, Destiny, Zoe, Pip   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=247665  





 

I’ve never tried that, Lynn.  Logo loved it but every other horse I’ve given it to seemed to find it offensive.  It’s important and expensive enough that I found it easier just to squirt it in the mouth and be done with it.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


LJ Friedman
 

Woman in my town that works the horse shows is selling this product. She says it’s the same as the horse product. I didn’t buy it but I wanted to know thoughts?
--


Lorna Cane
 

It's made by Auburn Labs, LJ . Auburn makes APF, as you know.
Why not contact them?
No time right now, but I'm interested in finding out price, just for comparison with APF.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


LJ Friedman
 

The pricing are exactly the same. I guess I could contact them. I will
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos