Effects of long term high insulin levels
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Could someone explain the effects of long-term high insulin levels to me? Is it more than just increasing the risk for a laminitic episode? This came up in discussion with my BO last night. We are trying to safely put weight on Flame. I’m trying to implement weighing a set amount of hay to soak and feed to him daily. I had thought that each meal was being weighed by the worker at the barn but just found out that it hasn’t been being weighed for a very very long time. He’s just guessing by feel how much to feed. So I will now be weighing each meal myself. The BO compared the soaked hay to pablum & questioned Flame’s quality of life because of it & because of his body condition. He’s a typical EMS/IR/diabetic horse with muscle wasting at the top line, ribs showing & a little pot belly. Flame very rarely doesn’t finish his meals and he attacks his hay nets with gusto. He also really enjoys the TC balanced timothy cubes & the Mountain Sunrise timothy pellets. He is sound & enjoys getting out for rides & lunges every day. I even showed him last month. He is happy & cheerful, he doesn’t hide in the back of his pen or have a bad attitude. I was honestly shocked by the conversation last night and just need help explaining in a little more detail to the BO why he looks the way he does & how the high insulin levels/EMS can course that. Thanks in advance! -- NV Oct 2013 Flame Pictures |
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The body condition effects actually sound more like PPID but I see your ACTH is well controlled. What is the protein content of your hay? NDF and ADF? There can be muscle loss when they are frankly diabetic but his glucose has been well controlled for a while now. I would try:
1. Give him free choice soaked hay 2. Stop the Mountain Sunrise - increase ODTB instead and feed moistened if you can get them to do that 3. Gradually increase flax up to 1 lb / day to boost protein 4. Start 3 scoops/day of Uckele Tri-Amino How often do you deworm? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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A boarding facility has their people working very fast. Weighing hay each individual time is probably too much work. My thought is that an experienced staff member can probably guesstimate good enough the amount of hay? Secondly, you can weigh out the hay for a week at a time?
-- LJ Friedman Nov 2014 Vista, Northern San Diego, CA Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History
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Thank you for your replies. The hay analysis that I had done was over a year ago. That hay is long gone and I don’t know what the analysis of the hay that I’m currently feeding is which is why we soak it every day. I am now measuring the hay out for them so I at least have a consistent amount that I’m giving him. Trying to find the amount he will eat without leaving excess waste. Dr. Kellon I will implement the changes you suggested. I worm him twice a year, less often then the other boarders horses, since he’s not allowed to go out on the pastures. I understand that soaking hay takes out the sugars and starches, and that I’m guessing reduces some of the calories of the hay, but does it remove all the calories? My barn owner thinks soaking removes every single calorie out of the hay & that’s why Flame isn’t gaining weight. I don’t feel that this is right but I also don’t know how to explain it to her. Thanks in advance!
-- Beth & Flame & Diana NV Oct 2013 Flame Pictures |
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Soaking does not remove all the calories, but it does reduce them a bit. One of our members did a back of the envelope calculation and figured if 30% of the sugars were lost to soaking for a 7% ESC hay, it translates to about 4.6% loss in calories.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/233680 That's a ballpark estimate but I would add 0.5-1 lb to make up for the lost calories, and just monitor condition and adjust accordingly. Another way to do it is to test unsoaked and soaked hay samples from the same hay. I recently sent soaked and unsoaked samples in for carb testing and your post reminded me that I should make sure DE (digestible energy) is included in the tests to see how much the calories drop with soaking....I will report back when I have the results, but I know others will have done the same and maybe they can tell you what percentage of calories were lost with their soaked hay. It will vary, just like the amount of sugars soaked out varies depending on the hay. Soaked hay is not Pablum, but even if it was so what!? Once again after reading your post I am outraged! I decided not to comment the first time, but now I am... Food texture and even taste does not define quality of life. Soaked hay has not lost all its calories or 'goodness'. Sugars and potassium are reduced, but potassium is always in excess so that's not an issue. Things like dirt (including iron) and dust are also reduced, to the benefit of the horse. If soaking is only kept to 1 hr max, I am not aware of any other significant loss of minerals. These comments all come from lack of knowledge so, yes, please educate your BO. Based on your description of Flame he does not sound like he is suffering. You don't have any recent photos of him posted but I imagine if he was shown recently his condition is reasonably good. He sure looked good in 2016! -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Thank you Kirsten. I will definitely let my BO know that not ALL the calories are soaked out of the hay. I was pretty astounded & then mad when she liked his quality of life to his food. He is bright, looks forward to me showing up 6 days a week & getting him out to exercise. He is sound & eats well. I just need to make sure he’s getting enough to put on weight. He doesn’t look quite as good as his last pics. I’ll take some tomorrow & out them in his Case History folder. Again, thank you for the info!!
-- Beth & Flame & Diana NV Oct 2013 Flame Pictures |
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Cindy Giovanetti
Believe me, a lot of us would be delighted if soaking hay removed ALL the calories. There’s nothing I’d like better than to give my horse ad lib, calorie-free hay.
Cindy -- Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas On ECIR protocol since 2/19 https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/ History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125 |
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marcia <marcia@...>
Hello Cindy, I am also in North Texas, Sanger, north of Denton.
Marcia TX 2020
From: main@ECIR.groups.io [mailto:main@ECIR.groups.io] On Behalf Of Cindy Giovanetti
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 3:44 PM To: main@ECIR.groups.io Subject: Re: [ECIR] Effects of long term high insulin levels
Believe me, a lot of us would be delighted if soaking hay removed ALL the calories. There’s nothing I’d like better than to give my horse ad lib, calorie-free hay.
Cindy
-- Marcia M Texas 2020 |
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I’ve uploaded body pics taken today into our picture folder. He was body clipped at the beginning of September but had grown out a lot so it’s a little hard to see his body condition. I taped him at 800-820 pounds today.
-- Beth & Flame & Diana NV Oct 2013 Flame Pictures |
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He looks bright and generally healthy, about BCS 4.5. He would look different if he wasn't stretched out in a Saddlebred stance. The topline loss is partially muscle and partially fat. If the somewhat lax belly is related it does look like a PPID effect but can't rule out diet without a hay analysis. Same recommendations as before. I also don't see vitamin E on your list of supplements. He should be getting 2000 IU/day from either soft human gelcaps of E in oil (not glycerin) or Uckele Liquid E.
He may also have reached the point where his chewing forces are decreased and he doesn't process hay as well as when he was younger. If that's the case he'll do better having a large proportion of his calories coming from soaked cubes. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Thanks Dr. Kellon for your reply. He is on ukulele liquid E. I will make sure it’s on his case history. I’ll be going on all the recommendations you gave me. Thank you!--
Beth & Flame & Diana NV Oct 2013 Flame Pictures |
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