2 months after initial laminitis episode
W.phyllis60@...
I am caretaker for a 16h Tennessee Walker mare that developed laminitis early August. She is obese (fatty deposits at withers and base of tail and cresty neck) and owner had her on sweet feed as well. She had access to grass pasture but spent most of her time on a partial alfalfa pasture. At the onset I immediately took her off pasture and sweet feed. She was very sore so had her on 2g bute a day. She is now off bute completely. Initial trim after onset seemed to provide some pain relief but most recent trim, 2 weeks ago, she is very sore again. Left front showed some sole bruising and right front has separated lamina. She does not hoof test sore and has very thick soles. I have recently put her in therapy boots that I had for my own horse (old injury) which seemed to help some. Vet was out to see her and confirmed laminitis but owner refused to pay for radiographs so I’m trying to figure out if I am doing the right things...what else I can possibly do for her...is this typical 2 months in? She is on grass hay and has lost weight since being inside. She gets 20 lbs of hay per day. Should I be soaking it? Should I have it tested? Any advice or guidance would be most appreciated! I feel so badly for her and with my limited resources I’m not sure what else to do.
Thanks so much! -- Phyllis W in OH 2020
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Sherry Morse
Hello Phyllis,
Welcome to the group! The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where
you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly
understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse.
Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more
information/instructions that will save you time. Before I go any further with our usual welcome message I need to direct you to our terms of use (https://www.ecirhorse.org/terms-of-use.php) specifically Section 4 D. Do you have the owner's permission to be posting about this horse? Then, while it sounds like she is IR, has there been any bloodwork to confirm this? If the owner will not pay for bloodwork or x-rays at best you can treat her as if she is IR which would include changing her diet as indicated in the "Diet" section below and seeing if the owner is agreeable to having her trim corrected if needed (More on that in the "Trim" section below) To briefly touch on diet though - how much does the mare currently weigh? What is her ideal weight? Is the hay being weighed? Has it been tested? IF she's still overweight she should be eating 1.5 of her current weight or 2% of ideal weight per day - whichever is greater. That amount includes hay and any concentrates as well as pasture (although if she is IR she should not be on pasture, unless she is wearing a closed muzzle). If the hay has not been tested then we do recommend soaking it (information on soaking here: https://www.ecirhorse.com/DDT+E-diet.php). As far as being sore after her trim - we would need hoof pictures to better assess the situation but if she has abscesses moving, or the trim isn't tight enough or changed something rather drastically it's not unusual to see soreness after the initial laminitic event. It's not ideal and usually indicates something can be better but trying to guess what isn't usually very productive, which is why we ask for a case history and photos of each horse in the group. With all of that said, what follows is our basic welcome letter. It's rather long and involved so get comfortable as you'll probably have more questions after reading it.
Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message
with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any
trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Hi Sherry,
This is a lot of information and I am still trying to process it all. I created my case history and uploaded today. I have no pictures yet but will try to get those soon. I will also try and get hay tested in the near future. In the last couple days Patches has really improved and is the best I have seen her without any bute. She is moving pretty freely in her stall where before she hesitated to move. She still occasionally favors the right front but nothing like she was. The right front had separated lamina whereas the left front does not. This all happened within a couple days. Is this typical? Assume I should keep her stalled for the time being and continue with the feeding schedule I have her on unless i hear otherwise from your group. In the meantime, I will continue reading all of the information on this website. Thanks so much -- Phyllis W in OH 2020
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Sherry Morse
Hi Phyllis, Could you please add the link to your CH to your signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches To do that: 1) Go to this link to amend your auto-signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub 2) Look at the bottom of that page for the window that has your signature in it 3) Add the link to your case history folder and make sure you make it "live". Adding a space after your link or
hitting enter on your keyboard will turn it blue.
4) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE! If you have a dry lot and Patches is comfortable moving around there's no reason that she can't be let out to move about as she wants UNLESS she's acting up and doing herself more damage because she's feeling so much better. In that case we recommend a smaller area but movement is really helpful to keep circulation going, decrease other soundness issues and even some movement can help with weight loss as needed. As far as the current feeding program - without knowing her ideal and current weight there's no way for us to know if 20lbs is enough, too much or too little. If she needs to lose more weight and she's losing it on that amount then it's probably ok. If she's not losing weight and needs to, then she needs less... Is she still being fed the Triumph and the Essential K? At 8% fat and 33% Sugar + starch the Triumph would blow the feet off most horses on this group (if not most horses in general) so if she's even possibly IR that shouldn't be fed. The Essential K is also unsuitable for a suspected IR horse with a sugar+starch of 12.5% and a fat content of 6% so she should be off of that as well. If you could post trim pictures ASAP Lavinia may be able to get you markups before the next farrier visit. I would guess you're seeing white line separation in her foot?
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Hi Sherry,
Patches is no longer on the Triumph feed. I took her off that and switched to Essential K at the onset August 1 per the recommendation of my vet. I plan to look for Stabul 1 to see if I can get her switched to that. She has lost weight on the 20 lbs of grass hay per day. I suspect she’s lost around 30 to 40 pounds since the laminitis onset. I’m not sure how to weigh her and I have no way to know what her ideal weight is so any suggestions on how to accomplish this would be appreciated. Maybe you will have a better idea once I get her pictures out there. I have a small indoor sand arena that she could be on but not sure how to block off a small area. She cannot be trusted to not be rambunctious since she is feeling better. I took her out of the stall for the first time in probably 2 weeks today and was hand walking her on the sand. She tried to rear and prance when my horse came to the window. I know a small area would be the only way to contain her. Absent that, handwalking in the arena would maybe work while my horse is outside? I will work on getting pics out there. Thanks so much for your help! I would love to have trim advice if we can manage that since I feel like that was a setback last time. Yes, she does have white line separation on the right front only. Thank you! -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches
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Sherry Morse
Hi Phyllis, I would recommend just stopping the Essential K at this point. If you're using it as a carrier for supplements it can be replaced with rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. As far as determining weight and ideal weight we have a couple of resources: Ideal weight: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weights%20and%20Measures/How%20to%20Find%20Ideal%20Body%20Weight.pdf Weight calculator using a measuring tape: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Tools%20and%20How-To%20Help/Horse%20Weight%20Calculation.pdf Or you can download an Excel file to do the calculations for you: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Tools%20and%20How-To%20Help/Horse%20Weight%20Calculator.xlsx We usually let the horses dictate the turnout - if you put her out in the arena and she bucks around a bit but then settles and isn't sore she's ok to be out on her own. I personally have found that walking in hand can be much more exciting than just letting them be on their own so that's just something to keep in mind.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Thanks Sherry, I will work on the weight. Can you please check the link below for my photos? My link looks different than yours.
Thank you! -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
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Sherry Morse
Hi Phyllis, I noticed the other day that we had somebody with 2 different photo links but they both went to the same spot. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382 is also your album, but I'm not sure why both links are different yet still work. As far as the photos - I see room for improvement in the trim but Lavinia is the expert on those so you'll want to do a post that says something like "Hoof Mark Up Request" so she knows it's for her. Weight-wise Patches doesn't look too bad here - how does her crest feel though? Soft and moveable or hard as a rock, somewhere in between? That may be the best judge of how controlled her IR is at this point.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Hi Sherry,
I will put a request out there for markups. I added two more pics of the sole. They are probably not as clean as you would like. I scrubbed with a wire brush so hopefully they are clean enough for analysis. If not I will try again. She has lost some weight but never really had a big belly in my opinion. I think the vet and others called her obese due to the crest and fatty deposits. She used to have fairly large fatty deposits at the base of her tail which have decreased significantly since she’s been inside on the grass hay diet. The crest used to be hard as a rock but has also decreased in size. I wouldn’t say it is soft and moveable but is not hard either. Thanks again for all your help. -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
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W.phyllis60@...
Hi Sherry,
Using the weight calculator I came up with 1251 as her weight. Currently I suspect her body score is somewhere between 5 and 6, probably closer to 6. i have been putting her out on the sand arena for the last couple days. She is out for about 3 hours a day while my horse is on pasture. She seems fine when walking in a straight line but occasionally (not always) seems to favor the right front when she turns. And you were right, she does a little bucking and then mostly walks around. Do you think it’s ok for me to continue letting her out? Thanks! -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
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Sherry Morse
Hi Phyllis, If she's not any worse after being out I'd be inclined to continue allowing her out to move around. It sounds like she's self regulating at this point which is a good thing.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Hi Sherry,
One day last week Patches was particularly rambunctious in the arena and was bouncing on her front feet at the door. She was very sore for the next 3 days. I have kept her stalled and she is just now starting to move around better again. Do you think her behavior caused the soreness? She had been doing really well up to that point and there have been no changes to her diet. And how long do I keep her stalled again before letting her back out? Is this just determined by how well she is moving in the stall? Thanks, -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
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Sherry Morse
Hi Phyllis, When you can make a direct correlation like that and then she gets better without anything else changing it's probably correct. Is she in boots at this point? Personally, as long as she's still in a smallish area I wouldn't be inclined to keep her locked up as movement is the best thing for circulation and keeping them from getting stiff and sore. Unless she's ridiculously silly she's probably smart enough to self-regulate and keep herself from getting more sore.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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W.phyllis60@...
Thanks Sherry,
She is not in boots at this point. She was until she was feeling better and I started letting her out in the arena. Should I still have her in the boots? Thanks -- Phyllis W in OH 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
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Sherry Morse
If you're seeing any evidence of soreness I would keep her booted. She needs time to grow the injured hoof out and the extra support and cushion can't hurt.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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In my experience, I let my mare move at her own will in her paddock all the time she was in pain. If she was down , I provided her hay and water as close to her as possible. Her paddock was about 200x200 so there was room for her to buck and run if she chose. Her run in had lots of bedding for her comfort.
IMO I have never heard of confining them during their acute processes as it can cause more issues. Motion is lotion -- Cheryl and Jewel Oct 2018 Port Alberni BC Canada https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063
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I think it will help when you get your markups back and a trim done, too, as running around on post-laminitic hooves with long toes could cause further pain/damage, which is a good possibility for why she is sore after. She's obviously feeling good if she wants to run around, but not really thinking about her feet hurting her after until its too late (I think the adrenalin of running and playing can overshadow any pain at the moment, but then they do feel it after). Your arena certainly looks like it has lots of soft sand, so I'm thinking its just the trim now and I know you are in the process of sorting that out... For a now, can you make her turnout area a little smaller with panels? As Sherry suggested, boots with pads might help too.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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A question about laminitis, with the horses down, we know that’s not a bad thing. Protecting the feet etc. But when they’re down does that mean they’re in more pain than if they’re not down? I remember when jesse was laminitic and he was walking like a cripple, pardon the pun, he never went down. Could it be Horse his personality? Or is down always more pain than not down but still walking in a lot of pain?
-- LJ Friedman Nov 2014 Vista, Northern San Diego, CA Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History
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I've always thought ,too, that some horses are leery of going down, fearing that they might not be able to get back up.
I don't know of any science to back up my suspicion. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario
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At one extreme, there's a level of pain that will drop any horse (or human). Beyond that, we have no way of comparing the pain one horse experiences to another, especially as manifested in their behavior. It's not that simple. For example, the horse is a prey animal whose instinct is to run. Being down is a very vulnerable position. Depending on the individual's personality, they may chose to avoid that as long as possible while another may give in to it. They can't talk so we can't tell what they're thinking.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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