Safe Canadian supplement for a picky boy?


lamarleau@...
 

Hello! 
Magic is doing much better and walking around everywhere, but he will no longer touch his timothy cubes and Madbarn AminoTrace.  He was happy at the beginning, but he no longer wants this. I don't know if this coincide with the introduction of Metformin on Saturday.  After the 4th dose he did not feel well at all.  I skipped the evening dose and then gave him half dose for a day and I will increase slowly.  I also purchase Milk of Magnesia and rincing his mouth.  Now he is himself again, but will no longer touch his supplement.

For the folks in Canada, what else are you using as carrier and supplement?

He will not touch anything mushy (no soaked cubes or beet pulp) or in powder form.  If he smells something suspecious, he is not touching anything either.  Very picky! He loved the ECIR cookies, but found the Prascend pill so no longer wants these either.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  He has been on soaked hay for 3 months so he needs vitamins and minerals ; ((

Tks

--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=francine+and+magic

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Tanna
 

Not sure the volume of your supplements but might you try sprinkling them on his wet hay? 

My mare would not do salt, copper/zinc in her BP or grain but will happily eat them on wet hay. 

--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Mary Ann
 

I'm using alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp as my carrier for Amino Trace supplement and my mare is not cleaning up her entire meal. She's not liking her beet pulp any longer, so I have to double up on the alfalfa pellets to encourage her to clean up her feed. I've also started using sugar free apple sauce to hide her Prascend pills and I've started giving her one stalk of coarsely chopped celery to try to hide the smell of her pills as well.
--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Mary Ann,

Just know that some of our compromised horses become foot sore  on alfalfa. Not sure why.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Denise
 

Check out Herbs for Horses..  Great products... The Vita boost Powder amd Hoofmaster is what I ordered..

https://www.horseherbs.com/


--






Denise & Ben , NB Canada Joined 2020 !!!!
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=denise+and+ben


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Denise,

Great for what?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


lamarleau@...
 

He can't have alfafa at all.  I tried wheat bran and brewers yeast, pumpkin seeds.... nope nothing works.
Will try to get some peppermint flavouring tomorrow 

Cubes dry or wet nope.
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


Denise
 

OP was looking for a supplement from Canada..Herbs for Horses has lots of options..They will also make custom blends ..
--






Denise & Ben , NB Canada Joined 2020 !!!!
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=denise+and+ben


Cindy Giovanetti
 

Francine,

 

My horse also felt poorly when I introduced Metformin.  I had to go back and titrate up from one pill, increasing one pill a day.  When I did that, we had no further problems for about six months. 

 

After about six months, like yours, mine quit eating the meals that contained the Metformin.  I wasn’t sure it was the Metformin he was objecting to or the feed or a supplement (or the fact that the feed was soaked), so I had to take them off everything and add each ingredient back in one at a time. 

 

After I got everything added back in, including the Metformin, he went off his feed again, so I had to start the whole process over adding one supplement in at a time.  The second time, after I got him back to eating well including his supplements, I did not try the Metformin again.

 

If his insulin skyrockets, I will have to syringe it in.

 

Cindy


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
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Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Francine and Mary-Anne,

I've been successful with mixing soaked beet pulp or soy hull pellets with 0.5 cups of CR Pro Fiber Crunch and Amino Trace+ pellets.  The CR Pro Fiber Crunch seems to add enough yummy stuff that the AT+ pellets blend in.  I also add jiaogulan, which they seem to like.  My horse is not overly picky though.

The CR Pro Fiber Crunch does have some alfalfa in it, along with beet pulp and soy hulls, but one of our veterinary volunteers, Dr Jaini Clougher, found she could feed up to 2 cups of it before seeing a negative effect in her most sensitive horse so I figure it's low enough in alfalfa that a small amount is fine.  It smells sweet, like apples.
https://www.trouwnutrition.ca/en/species/equine/step-right-products/cr-profibre-crunch/

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Denise

Just a couple of things you may want to be aware of about these products. Can't see any lab work in your CH so not sure what metabolic issues you are dealing with.  Did not go through your messages.

For folks dealing with an EMS/IR individual there are ingredients that ECIR does not recommend across the board.  The B vitamins, Niacin, Riboflavin, Threonine and Thiamine can have impact on glucose and insulin. There a recommended limits and avoid recommendations here. Since both of your products have the B Vits, you'd want to calculate how much you are actually getting.

Vitamin C is not recommended due to the acidic component creating an environment where more iron can be absorbed. The Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin so, unless micronized, would need added fat to be absorbed.

There is iron (ferrous sulfate) added to the Hoof Master. The 300 mg of Manganese Proteinate would also not be needed for many, many hays.  By competing with binding sites, manganese can make iron stores worse. There is a minuscule amount of copper and zinc, very important for hoof and skin.

I did not go through the Vita Boost analysis to convert their mg/kg analysis into what an actual serving would give you of every component.  Maybe you have done that.  Using this product with the hoof master, you are doubling up on the B Vits we like to stay away from as stated above.  It looks like this one has more copper and zinc than the hoof supp, but whether it is what you need would be unknown without a hay test. You are only getting one mg of SE Yeast which would not meet recommended daily requirements. Same issue with Vitamin E here.  Needs a fat to be absorbed.

The ECIR Horsekeeping subgroup has a really good file on the intricacies of Vitamin E -- -Vit E Recommendations.doc
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


lamarleau@...
 

I tried mixing it with his wet hay. He left the entire thing at the bottom of the feeder. Grrrrrr

--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


Mary Ann
 

After my mare was diagnosed she had a serious uveitis flare that required numerous treatments. While she was on doxycycline and NSAIDs we put her on Omeprazole to help with ulcer formation. While she was on the omeprazole, she cleaned up all her meals. When she was finally able to be weaned off the NSAIDs and omeprazole her appetite began to diminish. 
--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie


hdavis
 

Hello,

sorry to hear you are having issues.  I too had problem s with my mare with this when she was on metformin. It was always a challenge and I ended up giving the metformin orally and crushed the pills up and put them in a slurry with some oil.  Then rinses her mouth out very well.  My mineral mix has salt in it which I would put in my Timothy cube mash and I wonder if she still didn’t get some ulcers in her mouth and perhaps the minerals/salt didn’t hurt her mouth?  

Not much help I know as I didn’t find a good trick and everyday was always a struggle.  I too used the milk of magnesium to help her tummy.  We ended up stopping the metformin as it wasn’t working and switched over to Invokana.  

Hope you can figure something out but for your pony but I do think that the metformin must be hard in their stomachs just based in my experiences with it.  Maybe some are more sensitive than others too. 



--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Amadadelsol@...
 

I have recently stopped Metformin for the reasons being discussed here. For those of you who've switched to Invokana, are you having any side effects like mouth ulcers and loss of appetite? Also since my mare would not eat her Stabul1 with the Metformin in it I eventually started syringing it in. Do they accept the Invokana in their food more readily? Are the pills as big as Metformin? We did 16 per syringe and it was a pretty large volume. In a perfect world someone would come up with a tiny pill they don't notice. 😊
--
Pat and Frigga
Monkton, VT
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252741  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Frigga


lamarleau@...
 

Heather, 
I bought his mom in Brandon 18 yrs ago. 😀 She was in foal and this little monster came into our life.  Long trailer ride to Quebec.  Mom is still here too.

We are testing glucose and insulin friday so if it didn't help will also stop Metformin and see if he will want his supplement.  No problem with hay.

Not easy and not many choices of supplements here.
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


hdavis
 

Hello Francine!

wow that is cool that you bought his mom from Brandon!  Small world!  Sorry I wasn’t much help with the metformin issue :(


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




LJ Friedman
 


-- zero side effects with invokana 
its nothing like metformin 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Sherry Hite
 

Agree with LJ.  Only side affects for Pepper were  some weight loss that was immediately corrected with a little more beet pulp and an increase in urine volume which I understand to be normal. There is only one pill once a day and it is about 1/4 the size of the metformin pill.  
--
Sherry & Pepper, August 2015, No. Calif

 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Pepper

Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5798  .

 

 



lamarleau@...
 

Thank you Denise
I ordered HERBITS (SUGARLESS HORSE TREATS) 
From herbs for horses and he finally ate his supplement tonight!  Only a few grains mixed with herbits and he licked his bowl. 😀  yeah! Will go slowly but it's a winner.

Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy