Good afternoon.
I have uploaded the analysis for the three hays I am feeding.  All three are straight Timothy.  The one called Hallet's is the crop I filled my shed with for the full feeding season from Spring 2020 until Spring 2021.  This is what horses were eating at time of diagnosis PPID and IR for K, PPID only for J.  In an earlier emergency email I gave a few numbers only and one responder said that it was not "too bad or high".  From a date after diagnosis THIS hay has been soaked before use.
Can I feed it unsoaked when mixed or cut with other two hay types I have subsequently sourced?  I still have approx. 60 bales of this to use in an 80 bale storage facility.
Blackwell Tim 2 is too course for J to eat so she is eating a mix of soaked Hallet's and Blackwell 4.  (she has fully erupted teeth with a few missing and is more mouthing the hay and quidding it than eating it.)
K is eating a mix of all three varieties (apprx. equivilent amounts)
Also does it appear that I need to supplement with Magnesium?
Thanks
--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K

Hi Kandace,

You mentioned K developed laminitis while eating the "Hallets" hay, but was she also on pasture at that time?  All of your hay analyses fall into our 'safe for most EMS horses' cut-off of <10% ESC+starch (as fed/sampled column).  It is more likely for the variable and daily to hourly fluctuating sugars in pasture to trigger laminitis.  However, some horses do need a cut-off of <7% ESC+starch, although I think I'd K was one of those horses you would have seen laminitis much sooner, like shortly after she stopped getting heavy exercise.

All of your hays would be safe to feed unsoaked to most EMS horses, but mixing your "Hallets" hay (highest ESC+ starch) with the other 2 will reduce K's sugar intake a little bit.  If she is still really sore(???) then either: the cause of the laminitis has not been eliminated and I would continue to soak hay if you can (or feed her one of the Blackwell hays only for now), or her trim needs corrections to reduce pressure on her damaged laminae.  If she is feeling better, you could see how she does with unsoaked hay, but watch carefully for any signs if increased hoof pain, heat or digital pulses.  Insulin does go up with cold weather so stopping soaking when it gets cold is the worst time!  But I know if you don't have indoor soaking facilities and a barn to feed soaked hay in, it can be extremely challenging to continue soaking in our cold winters!  Again, your hay should be safe to feed unsoaked...but proceed with caution, especially if she was not getting grass when her laminitis occurred.

All of your hays should be supplemented with protein and, yes, magnesium.  Your "Blackwell Tim 4" hay analysis is the only one with trace element numbers and it has more than adequate iron in it already, but all hays need copper and zinc.  The Masterfeed Front Runner minerals are adding to the magnesium deficiency because it is high in calcium.  It also adds iron, which exagerates the copper and zinc deficiencies.  The Masterfeed VTM 30 is probably helping with the low protein in your hay, but it needs to be fed in higher amounts than the Front Runner to get the same amount of minerals.  There is no iron number given for the VTM30 but it is in there, too, in an unknown quantity. Also concerning is that there are no numbers for ESC and starch (or even NSC) for the VTM 30, so I definitely would not feed it to K without knowing for sure that it is low ESC and starch.  The manufacturer can probably provide those numbers, don't just take their word that it is "safe".  It can take very little to trigger and prolong laminitis.

The exact amounts of what to supplement should be determined by a hay balancer that is aware of K's EMS and can make safe recommendations.  Since you have a year's worth of "Hallet" hay to feed, I personally would core it and have it re-analyzed.  Nutrilytical in Calgary will rent you a hay probe (for the cost of shipping it to you I think), and they will process the sample, too.  You could ask for the "603" equine package, or to save some money and because you have a nearly complete analysis already you can get just the "10 mineral pack", which will give you the trace elements you are missing.  You can find a list of our approved balancers here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING.pdf

Mad Barn (Canadian company) will do a granular/powdered custom supplement for a reasonable cost, although their minimum order is equivalent to about 10 months of hay.  They also have a pelleted supplement called Amino Trace+ that they developed with input from Dr Kellon, and it does a good job of balancing most Canadian hays (although how well it balances yours, and in what amount it should be fed, needs to be evaluated by a professional).

I hope that helps!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

I see that Masterfeeds considers an NSC of <20% to be "low". 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://madbarn.com/feeds/vtm-20-pellet-masfterfeeds/&ved=2ahUKEwieto7_xbLtAhV4ITQIHVF1AhcQFjACegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0QmoeNe7Lp_oD6aVT7dmYK
That could be dangerously high for an EMS horse if the ESC and/or starch portion of it is high...unfortunately you don't know how high those are when sugar is reported as "NSC".

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Hello Kirsten,  Thanks for the information, but it is almost too much so forgive my, likely, disjointed reply.
First, housekeeping-I went back to the wiki for message etiquitte but it was not clear how was best to answer.  There was sme mention of ansering through web, so I have chossen online.  Forgive and correct if this is wrong.

We have no access to pasture, but I have an area with grass where I ride horses down to and allow grazing for 30-45 minutes.  Due to Covid and injuries, this was more often this year than in the past, maybe once every three days?  Time of day random.  I have always done this bit of grazing as in competition horses are corraled on grass and I have worried that a stomach not used to any grass might be bothered by it introduction.  I have never felt this amount of time enough to be ptoblematic, what would you say?

"Masterfeed Frontrunner FR 30% Horse Supplement Pellets" is name off label of product I purchased when I asked for "VTM 30".  Are they not the same?  Is it a Canada US thing?  I may have used the name interchangably on my two case histories, but have only the one product. 
Label shows iron at actual 1,250mg/kg.  Label shows copper at actual 450mg/kg.  Label shows zinc at actual 1,210mg/kg.  I see no amount of magnesium listed on label. 
Will contact to see if a starch + sugar number can be obtained, it is sold as a supplement for horses not needing any extra calories.  Because of K's thin hoof walls I had been supplementing her with Greenhawks "Greenline Biotin + Zinc".  All supplements were stopped by veterinarians orders when bloodwork results were known.  Do you think this can be safely restarted?  or needs to be?  Is an excess of iron a problem for the IR/laminitic horse or also the PPID horse?

When K first went laminitic, both myself and vet thought it to be road founder caused, as toe was long, possibly for entire season with new farrier.  The first three weeks of her post diagnosis was on this assumption.  Then, as farrier was not making headway, we did blood work.  Could mechanical caused laminitis be enough pain to put this mares Insulin levels up?  As well as making the PPID numbers skewed so high?  My head is spinning with trying to keep the two horses and their progress straight in my head.  We are a week away from second blood tests, should I be asking for more tests?  Also will be trying to redo rads to see what if anything has changed with hooves.  As this has to be done "on Farm" the rads may not be possible due to flat land being pretty scarce here.

You write of a hay balancer as a person?  Is this the same an equine nutionist?  I did reach out to ARK Nutritionalist, Amanda, but did not get a response back as she is nearby and advertises that she does a farm visit analysis, including hay.  My hope would be to be able to compete with K again, but if laminitis cannot be controlled even to the amount of a sound riding horse, I am afraid I would have to have her put down as she cannot even be a pasture ornament for someone with a pasture, it seems to me.
-- ,
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K

Okay, I just got through all the links and see, yes a Hay Balancer is a very well trained person.  Do you recommend anyone from the USA list, as there are none from Canada?

--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K

Hi Kandace,

Just to say the person who balances your hay doesn't have to be from any particular place/country, to do the job.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

If you send your hay analysis to madbarn, they will create a profile for you for free in their online database. From there you can add other feed options and see if there's any prepackaged feeds or supplements that will fix your horses diet. If you can't find anything that does the trick, get a quote for a custom mix from Scott at madbarn. Its actually not that expensive and you only have to order a minimum of 25kg if you get it in granular form. My custom costs me $1.60/day including tax. Just be aware that some horses are not loving the taste of the madbarn products and it can be a bit of a trick to figure out how to get them to eat it lol. My opinion is that its worth the effort because its so important to get their diet tight.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

This is interesting,Allison.
Does this mean that MadBarn balances your hay for you, from the analysis, telling you the minerals needed, in the appropriate ratios?
You can then check their products to see if anything fits the bill, or Scott will do a custom mix for you?

Or......just  having foggy brain syndrome.....you have your hay balanced by someone here,and that is what you send to Scott,for the rest of the process?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Thanks Allsion.
Do you re-establish supplementing every year? 
I have been discussing this with my hay supplier, he has a business partner to help you choose your hay, to get the right one for your circumstance.  He, while not up the ins and outs(that's the planners job) is very aware of annual and field differences in his crop.  For example they found that the 2020 crop was much higher in sugar and starch, easily explainable when you think about the grazing recommendations.  2020 we had a great spring with the perfect amount of rain and then it got really hot and dry until past harvest time.  So the plants would have been stressing, loading their sugars up.
The hay I have now will last me until crop time next year, which will also put me into the same time as seasonal rise starts to impact my horses.  So does that put me into a whole new supplementing place?
Kandace
--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063

I send my hay away for sampling each year. Once I get the report back, I send it to madbarn and they plug the numbers in to my online profile. The profile is kind of like feed xl. Its a spreadsheet based program that has basic equine nutrition parameters built in. Its not detailed enough to tell you what your iron/zinc/copper ratios SHOULD be for example,  but most of us know by now where our feed program should fall. It does comprehensively tell you the breakdown of your feed, including carbohydrates and amino acids.

So my hay this year was double in iron from last year. Last year I could supplement with the Amino Trace plus and it brought my numbers in nice and tight. This year, not so much. I tried adding other pre-made supps to the feed plan to see if anything else would work. Madbarn has hundreds of feeds and supplements nutritional info saved in their online database so you just choose one, pick a daily amount to feed and see where your numbers come out. Unfortunatlely since im in Canada and our selection stinks here, nothing was working.

So I messaged Scott for a custom. He asked me what do I want in my custom, and what else do I feed besides hay (which i already had plugged in to my profile) so I said...iron/copper/zinc fixed, a probiotic, and extra magnesium sulfate. He discussed this with me a bit and cautioned me on a few things and we came to an agreement. I decided to ditch the magnesium in the custom because I can buy it waaaay cheaper at my local feed store. Doing it this way was cheaper for me than buying a general vit/min and then adding copper and zinc on top of that. Plus a heck of a lot easier.

Hay sampling each year is way more cost effective in the long run as opposed to just guessing. It costs me $50 but then I'm not wasting money shooting in the dark when it comes to my horses nutrition. Also if I had guessed based on last years numbers, I would have been way off on my iron values, and we all know how destructive that can be.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Allison,you said, "Unfortunatlely since im in Canada and our selection stinks here, nothing was working."

Our selection of what sucks ? ( you should have been trying to find products 20 years ago !!)
What products have you been unable to get here? Or for which appropriate substitutes weren't available?


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Hi Kandace,

It's hard to say if that grass caused her laminitis.   She has the added complication of PPID, plus whatever was in her supplements at the time, plus any weeds that might be in her enclosure.  My horse foundered (before going to his summer pasture) on hay in a dry paddock and he had mechanical trim problems, too (more details below).

I don't see "Masterfeed Frontrunner FR 30% Horse Supplement Pellets" on the Masterfeeds website.  I had looked up the 2 Masterfeed supplements online and the Front Runner is essentially a minerals-only mix, whereas the VTM30 is a source of mainly protein (30%, as per it's name) and calories with only moderately elevated minerals so it is meant to feed in higher quantities.  They are not interchangeable but maybe you have some combination of the 2 in a product they don't advertise online?  You will need to go by what us on the bag label.  The analysis on the Masterfeed website gives the magnesium amount in the Front Runner as a %, and it is very low compared to the added calcium and phosphorous.  You can Google it to see.  Your hay is deficient in Mg, and if you are feeding the Front Runner your minerals are too.  This low Mg could in part worsen K's IR.

I know Mad Barn does offer a balancing service, BUT as much as I like that company I would prefer not to ask the same company I buy from to also tell me what I need to buy (the exception being Uckele, because Dr Kellon does their balancing!).  That is my personal preference, although I am sure Mad Barn provides an excellent service.  One of our hay balancers will provide a more objective assessment of your needs, and we know they will follow Dr Kellon's recommendations as well as ensure that their recommendations are safe for EMS horses, and if you want to buy from Mad Barn (Canadian and free shipping) you can ask them to tell you which Mad Barn products would best suit your hay, or ask them to given you a list of what you need to supplement and then you can email Mad Barn and ask them to make up a custom mix.  Another balancer I have heard of who is Canadian is "Jana", she is recommended by "The Hoof Geeks", who I'm sure would happily put you in contact with her.  She is an NRC Plus graduate and apparently follows the balancing protocol Dr Kellon teaches.  Your hay balancer can also suggest a safer source of protein for your hay than the VTM30.

The problem with excess iron in IR horses (and possibly PPID horses) is that it worsens IR, which in turn increases iron absorption, which further worsens IR, etc...it is a self-perpetuating cycle.  Since horses can only excrete iron through intestinal cell sloughing or by blood loss, it builds up in their bodies so once it's there it is very hard to get rid of it.  Excess iron in humans is associated with all kinds of problems from cancer to heart disease to Parkinson's...for example, people who donate blood regularly have a lower risk of cancer.  Horses are not humans but the fact that they can't excrete excess iron like a carnivore can suggests that they aren't meant to have excess iron in their diet.  This thread has some very good information in it:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/69752730

Biotin can artificially raise or lower insulin and ACTH assays, so definitely don't restart the Greenline until after your next bloodwork if you want accurate results. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/77731380#256718
I don't think the biotin could have caused K to have >200 uIU/ml insulin but your next insulin value should be lower with the changes you have made and you will want the exact number without a biotin effect on it.  You can also ask your vet to add a note to the sample submission requesting that if the result is >200 again could they dilute and reanalyze it to give you an actual number.  I would consider testing her on unsoaked hay (since you are hoping to not have to soak this winter) and without any supplements other than salt, ground flax, and vitE.  Her results will tell you if she is likely or unlikely to be stable on unsoaked hay for the winter.  After bloodwork, I would only add in supplements that are known by ECIR to be safe.

I don't see the ingredients for the Greenline "biotin + zinc", but you have a label and it tells you those are the only 2 ingredients then it should be safe.  But if it has a base of wheat or alfalfa or rice bran (or something else known to be high in sugar or starch), then I would not feed it.  If you go with Mad Barn, you can have any amount of biotin you want -- as well as the recommended amount of Zn your hay balancer determines for your hay -- added to a custom supplement and will not need the Greenline product anymore.

Pain can increase insulin and ACTH but NOT to the levels K had.  There is no doubt she has metabolic conditions (PPID and EMS).  And it is not solely mechanical, as her bloodwork shows, although undoubtedly that worsened her pain.  When my boy foundered in 2017 I was told it was likely mechanical because his trim was horrendous, he had no ripples in his hoof walls (in hindsight that is because they were completely disconnected and he was walking on his pancake flat soles) and he was not getting grass when the founder occurred.  It took me 2 full years before I had bloodwork done to understand that he actually had EMS and that I was only perpetuating his suffering by not making drastic changes to his management at the start.  I regret that I didn't treat him as EMS right away and remove him from summer pasture, it would have prevented a lot of horse (and human!) suffering.  But I didn't know any better and the information I found all suggested he could still graze if only I grazed him at the right time of day and temperatures, and that he needed access to 24/7 hay even though he was much too fat and unable to stop eating...  If I had made the changes ECIR recommended, he likely would have recovered much faster and maybe I would have been able to ride more in those 2 years.  When I finally found this group in 2019 and started gradually following their advice, I had a different horse.  He lost weight, he started growing healthier hooves, his fat pads-thrush-goopy eyes reduced and/or went away, he started initiating play with his buddy, and he no longer walked away from being touched (he used to hate being groomed and having scratches or gentle pats)...the first time he let me scratch his neck and he showed me that it felt good instead of walking away, I knew he was finally feeling better!  We still have problems with his EMS and laminitis, but we are on the right path and things are slowly getting better with the guidance of ECIR.

Last comment: the best thing for an IR horse is exercise.  It is apparently very common for endurance horses (ie Arabs) to get laminitis when they are retired and "put out to pasture for their golden years".  Once K is sound again, get her back in work and don't stop...that's the best thing you can do for her.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Hi Lorna,

The selection of vit/min supplements and low sugar / grain free feeds. Mad barn sells the most cost effective and mostly comprehensive product I could find. 

It wasn't my experience that using madbarns online database was skewed towards selling their products. Like I said...you send in your hay amount and they input the data and you can go from there and do your own balancing. The only reason I got a custom was because my hay was off balance. The custom blend is basically their omneity product with a few extras added to get my iron/zinc/copper ratios in line. 

I even tried balancing with uckele and Vermont blend products. Nothing did the trick. Madbarn didn't tell me what to buy. I knew what I needed to buy and they provided the product.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

I think I understand now, Allison. You are talking about over-the-counter supplements,to balance your hay . 

The individual minerals/items are available ,to put together  ourselves, according to the hay analyses, though.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

I looked into that as well Lorna. I spent hours and days calculating it all. Nothing was as simple or cost effective as getting a custom blend done by madbarn, especially when I had 2 horses to feed.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Very interesting Allison. It's good that it works well for you.

Over the years, I have  made up my own mix ,for my original herd of nine boys ( now 2), at a huge savings .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Lorna I would be very glad to learn any way of lessening costs, if you care to share your strategy! 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Hi Allison,

A lot of us follow the balancing information in Dr. Kellon's NRCPlus course to do our own balancing .according to the hay test results, or ask a trained balancer from this group to do it for us. Dr.Kellon also does balancing work.

When I know how much of each mineral/item I need to add,I buy them individually (usually from the feed store,but also Costco and Bulk Barn)  Knowing how much is needed per day,I multiply by 30 or 60 days,and the number of horses being fed. Using my gram scale,I weigh out the individual items, keep them separated until I am sure of weights, weigh again, check my math, and combine them well,to produce the mix.
Then,from my scoop drawer,I weigh out the mix in a scoop which most closely meets requirements for 1/2 the daily dose ( I feed BID to make more palatable for the boys ),and if necessary (usually is) mark a line on the scoop to indicate amount needed.
More calculations have to be made,of course,if there are horses of varying weights/needs, using this mix.
I have fed salt and flax using different methods, but currently add them separately at feeding time.
Wetted down Soy hull pellets provide an acceptable base,  but sometimes I add small amounts of shredded beet pulp .
I toss in the required number of vit. E (in oil) caps ,from Costco., for the morning meal.

I hope I haven't missed anything obvious.
There will be interesting variations on this theme from other members.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php