Overlapping supplements?


Shera Felde
 

My mare is very slowly recovering from 7 months of laminitis. I've tried dozens of supplements. I have her on Laminox and half dose of Glycocemic EQ along with Vit E, hemp, flax, and Absorb All. Dr. Kellon balanced my hay and determined copper and zinc were needed. Neither my mare or other two will eat the copper even with Coco Soyo or sweetener. So, I just ordered Equi VM. Now I'm reading all these ingredients lists and wondering if my IR mare (with Equi VM, Glycocemic EQ, and Laminox) would be getting too much selenium, iodine, b vitamins, etc. I asked the person at Uckele and she said it was fine, but reading these lists I see a lot of overlap. I know the copper and zinc are important but I don't want to create toxicity in other things. Any suggestions?

Thank you. I am thrilled to report that Story's insulin went from over 200 to 100. I believe it was the WIRX for 4 weeks so I'm sticking with that.
--
Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

She was right,  That combination is fine.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


taskerudet
 

Hi Shera,

So happy you are seeing good results with WIRX. I too have seen a huge drop in insulin and will stay the course.

--
Ellen and Crackers
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Nancy C
 

Hi Shera

Always fun getting them to eat stuff they are not used to.

I would approach this by calculating how much total you are giving of each ingredient you are worried about, but my biggest recommendation is to work to get the balanced minerals into them.

Hope you have taken a look at the Picky Eaters Checklist.  Picky Eaters Checklist.pdf 

Also have a look at the BOSS, Flax, Hemp chart to see if you are negating the benefit of the essential fatty acid Omega 3 in flax by giving high Omega 6 hemp.
FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf

The timing for your lowered insulin may be due to seasonal rise and weather. Cold temps can raise insulin. She is young but a rise in ACTH, even just seasonal, can raise insulin. Took a look at your CH and not clear when your follow up was taken.

-----
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Shera Felde
 

Thank you, Nancy. I had not seen these two doc's. I hadn't thought about hemp/flax conflict (all the interaction possibilities is dizzying for me!)  What is CH?
--
Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Shera

CH = Case HIstory
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


valerie puryear
 

What is WIRX? I checked the files but didn't come up with an answer.
--
Valerie and Matera
Aug 2018
Athens, GA, USA
Case History 
Photo Album
Ω


celestinefarm
 

Valerie, It's this. I don't know anything about it other than it appears to have cinnamon in it. 

-- G's Organic Solution


Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


 

Valerie, it’s a relatively new product, developed by a group on Vancouver Island, BC, where they seem to have a high incidence of IR horses.  If you search the messages, rather than the files, you will find more discussion.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


lamarleau@...
 

OMG for once it's canadian 😀 Does anybody have their horses on metformin and this supplement?
I tried to reduce metformin to once a day and his insuline went back up. Wonder if this could help.
Thanks

--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


taskerudet
 

Hi Francine,

I used Metformin for several months and insulin kept increasing regardless of increased dosage. 
-- I stopped the Metformin and started WIRX with a significant decrease in insulin. The Cornell test results are in the case history. I do provide the group updated results when new tests are done but the decrease in insulin is routinely attributed to other factors like pergolide dose (same for more months than use of WIRX), diet ( not changed) and anything else to seemingly discredit the product. I appreciate this group tremendously and adhere to all the principles but do not understand the reluctance to consider this product as possibly useful.  Just my opinion. So far, the numbers show it is working for my Crackers.

Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


ferne fedeli
 

What is WIRX?  I Googled & got a radio station, pharmacy, etc.

--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Lorna Cane
 


Lorna Cane
 

The archives came up with this,from one of the principals of the company.Many more messages there,Ferne.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/245239?p=,,,100,0,0,0::Created,,WIRX,100,2,0,68802723


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Shera Felde
 

I do attribute Story's reduced insulin to WIRX. 4-5 weeks on it and it came down over 100 pts. Sandi, who developed it, is very helpful and told me she created the specific cranberry and cinnamon combination after losing her horse to laminitis. She's on a mission. https://gsorganicsolutions.com/wirx/ 

It is certainly more sustainable for me than Metformin.
--
Shera Felde, Central Oregon, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Story%20and%20Shera
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253720


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Shera,

What time of year did you use it?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Sandi and Ellen

To all not introduced to WIRX: WIRX is cinnamon and cranberries.  Very expensive cinnamon and cranberries.  Cinnamon is used in humans for lowering glucose.  It has been trialed here extensively and not found to be effective on equines, my own diabetic gelding included. Unless there is new info that I am not aware of, use of cranberries are not supported. 

The web site talks about trialing and miraculous results, and we had asked for info on the same from the supplement maker back in 2017 but to date, have not received any.  From member reports, it was appearing that results were confounded by change of season, weather temps, and other factors introduced at the same time. In other words, it was not the WIRX. Members who trialed it found in the end it did not work.

Sandi - Could you please fill in the details of this drop? As I said it is not clear from your case history as to the timing of blood tests, administration of the supplement, and retesting, which could have a huge impact. Ambient temps could make a big impact too.

I am certain you are seeing what you are seeing Sandi, just want you to consider all the facts and supply us with more detail please.  It is a foundational protocol for ECIR to pull apart claims and your info will help others.

We know from years of seeing members in the PNW that it is very high in iron and manganese, which drives iron overload. This makes getting the copper and zinc recommended to you by Dr Kellon into your mare very, very important.

Hi Ellen - Thanks for all your detail. Your pergolide dose was last updated in 2019, where it was increased by 0.5 mg, and there has been no change since,is that right? You have highlighted your 2020 lab results (thank-you) which shows a glucose of 77, which would concern me about handling. Even with the reduction crackers is still IR by G:I ratio. I do see where your other lab results have reduced along with the start of the WRIX in 01.2020. I also note the ambient temps of your highest readings were well below 50. Cold weather will raise insulin. The insulin comes down as the weather warms and temps rise.

Hope you will keep us further informed as you do more testing. Thank you for your details.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


taskerudet
 

Hello Nancy,

Crackers has been on a dosage of 5mg compounded pergolide since October 2019 when his insulin started creeping up.  I'm not sure what the concern is about the glucose though.  He routinely varies in the 70's and 80's going back to 2011.  While on metformin it peaked at 138 which I thought would be of more concern.  His insulin readings were in excess of 200 when the temps were 50 to 75 degrees.  His most recent at 50 degrees F was an insulin of 27.72 which is lower than the previous reading taken at 64 degrees F with an insulin of 44.88.  What I see with his latest test results is an overall lowering of all numbers.  I realize that he still comes up as IR uncompensated using the calculator but I have read on this group that some horses (especially mini's) are sometimes always this way.  His numbers are not that far off from obtaining the holy grail of IR compensated.  His next tests will be in February - typically the coldest temps here.  Also, I don't know if the iron overload comment applies to me but I did have Crackers tested in accordance with the group protocol and Dr. Kellon confirmed he is not overloaded. 

I will of course post his next results and update my case history. My fingers are crossed for results similar to October 2020.

Thank you for taking the time to review my case history and providing comments.
--
Ellen and Crackers
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Frances C.
 

If the intention of supplementation in this case is to (1) reduce insulin levels and/or (2) reduce pain: then it would be helpful to know what outside influences can alter the basic normal insulin level of that particular animal. If cold air temps increase insulin levels then does high temps. also increase the levels? Is there a happy medium that suits our horses? Does insulin rise as soon as the  horse sees the vet's truck pulls in? Does confining the horse just prior to vet's visit lead to an increase? You say that trailering can lead to an increased level. So how fast can can insulin spike? For instance say  horse sustained a painful injury and the vet was called out it would be expected that his insulin level would be higher than normal. Then if the vet administer some pain med, the insulin level would decrease? If the horse suffers a chronic condition such as arthritis and supplements, nsaids, herbs etc are used to reduce pain levels and also a reduction in insulin levels, then if these items are removed from diet there would be an increase in insulin? What I am asking, trying to determine  is DOES THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE HORSE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME INFLUENCE INSULIN LEVELS? Is it Insulinwise, WRIX, PEA working to reduce insulin/pain or is it just the environment. I had my horse on Devils Claw, took her off and it seemed she was more painful. I have my horse on PEA and she seems to be less painful but on the other hand since she has been on it the weather has been delightful. She is always in some degree of pain and Im thinking of next time vet is around for routine stuff of asking for two blood draws to determine insulin levels pre and post a fast acting pain killer
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


sandicalveley@...
 

Nancy,
I do not come on here often, but was informed by members of your comments.  As in past threads on our product, I have posted only to correct facts.  I will do so again.  WIRX only became available to customers in August of 2019.  So, no, you did not ask us for any data in 2017, as WIRX was not even a thought at that time.  Our trials only began in fall of 2018, and at that time we were just testing different varieties of Cranberries.  Yes, one member was part of the trial for the first 2 months, but due to not conforming with the vets protocol was removed from the trial. 
As you know, I reached out to Dr Kellon on several occasions offering product to members with horses not responding to diet, to offer our product for free to try. I have NEVER had a response to my emails.  You have NEVER requested lab results from myself or Dr. F that conducted our trials.
I am very disappointed, that as the president of the ECIR group, you would post such untruths to your members.

We will continue on with our research studies, and continue to help as many horses as we can, through honesty and science.

And as an FYI, the two Welsh ponies in our trial ( one PPID one not) on last testing had insulin of 4 and 3 respectively.  No temperature or season can drop their insulin from 300 and 125. Others not as low but still fantastic, and NO laminitis.

--
Sandi
Vancouver Island BC
Dec 2018