Mild laminitis after dental


Joy V
 

Welp.  Willie was doing *fantastic* for about 3 months.  Everything has been dialed in, diet is tight, and he's been getting lots of walk abouts and turn outs.  Happy, sound pony.  I planned on starting light riding after his dental.

He had his dental on Monday, 1/18, in the morning, and was mildly lame on all 4 by 3:30 pm that afternoon.  Sedation used was "det 10mg + torb 5mg + ace 5mg IV" ,<--- from the vet notes I received.  No heat in the hooves, but light pulse in the backs.  I booted him on all four and dumped a big shavings pile in his paddock.  I did not give him anything for pain besides his normal CBD that day.  Game cam in his paddock shows him periodically standing in the shavings pile overnight (about every 2 hours, for 20 to 30 minutes each time) as well as sleeping in the pile.  Sleeping in the pile for an hour or two is normal for him.

He was still uncomfortable the next day (Tuesday the 19th) so I emailed my vet but he did not respond until yesterday AM and I couldn't go the barn again until the afternoon.  Vet recommended Banamine, 500 lb dose (1/2 dose), 2x per day for 2 days.  I did dose Willie yesterday evening but not this morning.  And I only dosed him because I believe his jaw is sore from the speculum (he's got TMJ) and he did quid a few mouthfuls both previous nights.  Because he is on CBD so I'm worried about using an additional NSAID on him.  I also don't think Banamine will help his laminitis, is that correct?  

My questions are, what can I do additionally to help him to be comfortable?  Is there anything I can do to help him recover more quickly?  Should I go ahead and dose him w/ the Banamine when I go back this afternoon? 

Next dental I will follow my hoof care professional's advice (demand) to use a dentist who does not sedate and uses hand tools.  (you can say I told you so Pamela). 

This morning he was much brighter than the past two mornings, and much more himself.  He did eat, drink, poop and urinate normally this whole time.  Case history is updated. 


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Bobbie Day
 

Dang Joy
I’m sorry, this is why I have refused Desi’s dental work for the last two visits. Both dentists that come to my area sedate and use the power tools. It takes my other horses a week to bounce back so I just don’t dare take the chance with her. I cannot for the life of me find someone qualified that will use the hand tools.
I wonder why they insist on the drills and speculums? Maybe because it’s faster?
I don’t know, I feel bad she hasn’t had them done for awhile though.
I hope Willie feels better soon.


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Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


LJ Friedman
 

wouldnt the quidding after a dental say things arent correct??
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LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Joy V
 

Thank you Bobbie.  I think they do do it that way because they can do more horses in the visit.  


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Joy V
 

It might LJ, but he does have pretty severe TMJ (and possible THO - I can't afford the ultrasound & hauling to/from the hospital for definitive dx right now) so his jaw is most likely sore from the speculum.  I did email my vet again with an update and to get his take.  I will ask him about that possibility, although because he did the float he may not think there is an issue. 

He looked more improved this evening, and while I was there, did a run down his paddock with a half buck for good measure.  I think it's along the lines of what Bobbie said about it taking a week for them to recover from it.  I notice each year, it takes him longer to bounce back.   
 
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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Joy.  I added two really good resources regarding general information about horse teeth, which included a discussion about TMJ. Also the next link are the meds to avoid for procedures. I am not sure what the Det and Torb stand for but the Ace is acepromozine... https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Dental%20Care/THM%205,%209%2010.pdf, 
-- https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here/3.%20Avoid%20These%20Items.pdf
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Trisha DePietro
 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20Relief%20Alternatives%20to%20Bute%20and%20Banamine.pdf- This link should bring you to alternatives to using Banamine for discomfort/pain. Hope this helps.
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


 

Joy, you're right that banamine isn't going help Willie's laminitis, and I suspect that it may counter the beneficial effects of the cannabis, or that's the theory with humans. One thing that comes to mind is that Willie's EMS and PPID aren't well-controlled. As a result, the insulin spike following sedation might have had a greater effect. Another possibility is that Willie's EMS and PPID weren't well-controlled during the seasonal rise and you're seeing the delayed effects independent of the dental float. This happened to me a couple of times, with a higher ACTH in January than in late October. Very frustrating. I note that you're using Loomis Vet's diagnostics, and the assay used for PPID is different from the one used by Cornell. It might be time to get comparable blood work results from Cornell. I once sent blood samples to both UCDavis and to Cornell from the same blood draw. Results were within the normal range at UCDavis, outside the reference range for ACTH at Cornell.

My experience with dental floats doesn't match the generalizations. Not doing dentals because of the pandemic lead one of my mares to have lacerations inside her cheeks from lack of care. I know Dr Kellon advocates a sedation-free float with hand tools, but my experience with a skilled equine dentist has been excellent since 2013. She uses minimal sedation with power tools. I've never had a horse bleed or have a sore mouth for a minute after a float. My mares are ready for the next meal. The veterinarian who administers sedation uses less sedation on my 1150 pound Paint (an admitted light-weight) than poor Willie had. She supports the horse's head while the horse has the speculum in its mouth, and she releases the speculum at least twice during the float, which takes 15 - 20 minutes total for each horse. Most of the time is spent staging. Skill and finesse go a long way. My three EMS mares never had adverse reactions to sedation, but it's done with a light touch. 

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Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Joy V
 

Thank you Trisha, I am going to the links now.  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and get me those links!


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Joy V
 

Hi Cass,  

I'll be getting him tested again in the spring but you could be right.  Although, his PPID was so low at his recheck I do think it was controlled during the rise.  The IR however is a different story.  But the last time I had him tested I hadn't been able to get him on tested hay yet.  Since he's been on tested hay, he has been doing better and better lameness wise and all his symptoms had resolved.  I will ask my vet for 2 separate samples so 1 set can be sent to Davis.  He is resistant to sending them there, but I'm sure he will if I pay for it ...  

For this float, the vet used a support and did release the speculum 3 times during the float.  Willie had no ulcerations, and his mouth was in pretty good shape, so the float was quick, about 15 minutes.  And yes, Willie was over drugged, poor guy.  It took about an hour to get him from the big barn on the property back to his paddock.  It's about a 5 minute walk normally.

Thank you for weighing in Cass, I have a lot to consider and think about. 


Willie was looking better last night.  I did not dose with Banamine.  I'll see how much he used his shavings pile when I check the game cam this morning.  On a fantastic note, the tenant at the barn who liked to sneak feed Willie sugary snacks has been evicted and is off the property.  So glad about that.

Thank you all for your suggestions and thought provoking questions.  I'm so grateful for this group!


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Ronelle
 

For your horse's TMJ, have you tried a chiropractor?  My horse's chiro likes to do an adjustment about a week after any dental.  It has helped my horse.
--
Ronelle and Yoyo
2015 Bend, Or, US


 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 05:13 AM, Joy V wrote:
I will ask my vet for 2 separate samples so 1 set can be sent to Davis.  He is resistant to sending them there, but I'm sure he will if I pay for it ...  
Hi, Joy.
I'm running but I want to clarify what I'm suggesting about testing Willie's metabolic status. 

I suggest you have complete blood work sent to Cornell, not to Davis. The only way to do it that makes sense is to get your vet and his staff to follow the directions on ECIRhorse.org to the letter. Otherwise you will be wasting your money. Hormone testing is fiddly and easy to mess up. https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php
 
I'm glad to hear Boxcar Willie is better each day. Love his name. Makes me want to learn the jitterbug.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Joy V
 

Thank you Ronelle, fantastic suggestion!  I will get an appt asap.  I never even thought of that!  I'm sure Willie will really appreciate it.

:)


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Joy V
 

Thank you Cass!  Got it.  I'm going to give it a shot and see if my vet will send it to Cornell.  Thanks so much for straightening me out, I read your words, but it didn't stick haha.

And thank you, Willie's breeder named him.  He said Willie was born shaped like a box - wide as he was tall!  ;)


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Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526