excess protein and insulin resistance


Leah Bartel
 

Hello everyone,

Despite the NSC + starch levels being appropriate for my IR-prone horses at 5.8% (NSC) + 0.6% starch for a total of 6.4%, they have seemed to gain all the weight back in their cresty neck and fatty tailhead. I'll admit, I have been lax about just feeding a certain amount of bales and not worrying about measuring out hay exactly, but I will have to start doing that now to hopefully get their weight back to a 4.5-5 BCS. 

One thing I've noticed while balancing their minerals is the crude protein content in the hay is double their needs. For example, if I feed 12.14 kg hay/day to get the 21.97 Mcals/day for my 659 kg draft mare, then she gets 1,565 g CP from those 12.14 kg of hay when she only needs 830 g CP. Seems like the hay we bought just has too much protein and it's really affecting the insulin resistant horses in my herd which leads to my question, do we know the mechanism for why excess protein can exacerbate IR symptoms? 

In humans, I believe its been shown that when people eat too much protein, excess amino acids will turn into glucose via gluconeogenesis. Could a similar mechanism be at play for horses? Is there some other proposed mechanism explaining why excess protein can be problematic for equines with EMS/IR?
--
Leah
Ohio
2019

Scooter's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leah%20and%20Scooter
Scooter's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=240467


Cheryl Oickle
 

I just had mad barn balance my hay and they red flagged the high protein in the balancing as a possible problem with chronically high insulin too!
Suggestion was to add magnesium oxide in interim 1oz to offset.
Dr Kellon's opinion would be appreciated on this whole new finding
--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Leah,

Could you please update your CH link to this one: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leah,%20Scooter%20and%20Blossom

We look at the ESC+starch number for hay, not NSC so that could be a piece of the puzzle.  I can't comment on the protein part of your question but it would be helpful if you could update Scooter's CH to reflect her current weight and feeding program.




Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Leah,

Insulin facilitates amino acid uptake by muscle for protein synthesis and it is known that certain amino acids can trigger an insulin release. There is also some research showing very high protein intakes can increase insulin but none of these are of the same magnitude as a load of sugar/starch. What we don't have a good knowledge of is how much protein is too much for an EMS horse, in terms of hay % or an individual meal.

That said, higher protein intake won't cause weight gain. Protein is very inefficiently converted to fat. Weight gain is an issue of too much food in general, not too much protein.

It's true that the carbon skeletons of some amino acids can be converted to glucose in the liver. However, that glucose remains in the liver to be released, converted to glycogen or converted to fat. It will not be released into the blood stream unless there is a message from the hormone glucagon that blood glucose is too low.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

As detailed in the previous post, high protein has the potential to influence insulin release although the details are still to be determined. Magnesium will not have any effect on this. I would suggest you ask whomever told you that to provide the research to back it up.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Leah Bartel
 

Thanks for your thorough response Dr. Kellon. Are the studies showing very high protein increasing insulin in humans or horses? Do you have a link? I'd like to read more about the details.

It's unfortunate that we don't have any data for how much protein is too much for an EMS horse, but I will experiment with Scooter and see if solely decreasing her hay   to the 12.14 kg / day (maintenance for her ideal BW) will help her lose the excess weight she has put on and if it will reduce the size of her cresty neck and fatty tailhead. I'll report back with my findings. Hopefully that will lessen her IR symptoms, otherwise I will have a lot of leftover hay that I will have to feed out despite the protein contributing to her IR. 

Is there a point at which the liver cannot contain any more glucose? Is glucagon regulated normally in an IR horse? 
Thanks for indulging my curiosities!

--
Leah
Ohio
2019

Scooter's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leah%20and%20Scooter
Scooter's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=240467


Leah Bartel
 

Hi Sherry,

I will work on updating Scooter's CH tomorrow. Also, thanks for catching my typo. I meant ESC was 5.8%, not NSC. Thanks! 
--
Leah
Ohio
2019

Scooter's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leah%20and%20Scooter
Scooter's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=240467


Cheryl Oickle
 

Apologies on my post re the magnesium lowering the protein and or insulin. I had my chemistry wrong.  The recommended addition of the magnesium was to off set the higher amount of potassium in the hay.
Hope this makes more sense


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


TERRI JENNINGS
 

Dr. Kellon,
Would this influence fatty liver disease?  

I’m just curious as our protein is often higher than my hay balanced would like it to be and Finn and Elliott are both suspected to have fatty liver disease.

Thank you,
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cheryl,

Magnesium needs to be in balance with the calcium in the diet - it has nothing to do with the potassium amounts.
All hay has excess potassium, which is only a concern if you have a horse with HYPP.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


wacahootakj@...
 

THE IMPACT OF INSULIN DYSREGULATION ON PROTEIN METABOLISM IN HORSES

Caroline Margot Marcelle Loos
University of Kentuckycarolineloos00@...
Dissertation, 2018
page1image256

--
Karen FL 2020