Vinnie Setback Today Sore Feet again


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Dr Kellon, et al;

I am fretting a bit today because Vinnie was quite foot sore today with mediocre pulses in both front feet. Earlier I thought that he wasn't looking cresty, but after going back this evening I realize he did have a small soft crest this morning that had gone away previously:

Variables:
1.  We did radial shockwave yesterday on his hips, neck, lumbar, SI and hocks. Could this have caused an insulin response by releasing stored glucose in the muscles?
2.  I have been adding about 3lb more hay gradually increased since Saturday be/ause Vinnie had dropped a bit of weight in the last week.. He was looking more ribby and wanted to make sure he got the calories he needed.. Could this have caused an isulin spike?  I am feeding about  80/20 of the Finta Orange Twine and Vaca Blue/Orange Twine orchards. Several tests for both in my folder.  We are not yet balanced to these hays as I just go the iron retest back on the Vaca Blue Orange.  Will be submitting to Dr K this week.  CH is updated with mins/etc.
3.  He felt really good after the shockwave yesterday and did a little trotting in the arena last night.  Could this have caused the soreness and pulses?  Or is that more indicative of an insulin response?
4.  we stopped Prascend on Jan 8th because the Dec 2020 bloodwork came back in normal ranges for ACTH but he was on .50 of prascend.  He was having such issues with the veil we opted to stop so that we could pursue a TRH stim if needed.  Could he be PPID even though his bloodwork sort of indicates otherwise and this the cause of the sore feet.. Since he is on Invokana, I would think that he wouldn't have improved so much if PPID was a factor.

I am super anxious and fretting that I could have done something to cause yet another set back.  Please let me know what you think.

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

One more thing I just remembered, I ran out of Iodized salt, so was using kosher salt as a replacement... I do think he wasn't drinking as much water the last two days.. Could this too have played a role where he wasn't removing the glucose in his system.  I have another post about reading the urine strips and the time factors in reading the strips.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Sherry Morse
 

Hi Nancy,

Depending on the horse and how much trotting was done there certainly could be soreness the next day.  Was Vinnie wearing booths while he was trotting around?  How is he looking today?





Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Sherry, thanks 😊

He is wearing affixed sneakers on both fronts. I haven’t been out to the barn yet today. I plan in going out shortly.

He maybe trotted for a couple short lengths of the arena.  Nothing super crazy or for a .long period. 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

He is a bit improved today, still sore on hard surface breakover and on turns. Better on soft surfaces. He meandered a bit in turn out to roll and so he was comfortable enough to do that.

He still has pulses more in in left than right. I watch his left coronary band for sinking and it seems like it may have an increased edge.  But this was present during the 1/12 rads too.  

His crest feels better than yesterday. My gut tells me that this feels like an insulin response but it seems like there are so many variables at play here.

I am definitely going to do a TRH stim to rule out ppid for certain.  The second guesting myself is driving me mad. 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Let's hypothetically say this was from doing too much even with the small amount if trotting he did.  Would that cause pulses in the feet?
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Is Vinnie the kind of horse whose pulses are always detectable, like my Paint? Or are they like Cayuse, where you need to have perfect pulse detectors to find them? If he did too much, I wouldn't be shocked by pulses in front, but I wouldn't expect stronger pulses on all four.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
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Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

He is one that you can usually detect a mild pulse in the fronts but that had diminished to nearly non existent, then came back the day of Shockwave. It increased later that day and into the next morning. The pulses are starting to calm back down again as of last night.

He has never had pulses behind.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Hi, Nancy. Another idea. I know little of Shockwave therapy and only experienced its use on myself for connective tissue injuries and pain. Is it prescribed by your vet or by your farrier? For which tissues? I was told to expect heat and inflammation and to ice afterwards. An obvious suggestion is to revise or confine the targeted tissues or to hold off on Shockwave until Vinnie is moving comfortably in front with his new sneakers for several weeks or a month. If he were mine, I’d  want to avoid inflammation in and near his hooves for while and really it quiet it down. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Cass, we didn't do any Shockwave on the front feet.  But honestly I am wondering if in releasing toxins from stiff muscles, if it caused a metabolic response.  I imagine that could happen. 

I think I am just going to err on the side of caution like you note.

There are still some things I am curious about especially glucose output from the urine samples ans the test strips from my other post.

Or the potential of a hidden ppid causing a metabolic response.  But in reality while on prascend his acth was normal but insulin through the roof.. so that leads me away from a hidden ppid. ( thinking out loud...lol)

I think I just need to be less careless about his rehab and really stick to a program where there is no trotting til we have a new hoof capsule.. 

Thx Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Muscles can get hard when they are doing more work than they normally would secondary to weight shifting but they don't have any toxins in them.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Would the hard muscles release anything that could create a metabolic response? Or are you thinking the same that he just over did it.  We are still sore but improving a bit each day.  
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

No. The muscles have nothing to do with it. Overdoing it is most likely.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Would it still be beneficial to get a TRH stim just to be sure not ppid causing issues?

He is off prascend now, and has been since 1/8.. The Jan test we didn't test for acth. Dec was 20.2 when on prascend, July was 24 when not on prascend.  We thought he may be borderline. He was having symptoms of the veil still in January and based on the Dec teat and starting invokana to get insulin down we opted to stop prascend.

His insulin came down from dec 198.37 to Jan 40.94 three days after starting invokana. 

Thx Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
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Summer
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

When you send in blood, ask the vet to send an EDTA for ACTH and serum for insulin and tell the lab to only do the ACTH if insulin is higher than your last test.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Joy V
 

I know how you feel Nancy, Willie was finally sound at some point a couple months ago so I turned him out and he went bat doo crazy.  He was so sore the next day, and still hasn't gotten sound like he was again.  

--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Joy V
 

Nancy my horse would just pop it and make himself spook!  A padded paddock maybe?!
 
--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526