Aragon's hoofs


Myriam Desrosiers
 

Hi everybody, first i'm so thankfull for this group...
Aragon had laminitis diagnosed in 2017, he had a very bad crisis after eating hay full of alfalfa. He had weared reversed horse shoes since january 2018 until june 2020, under farrier recomandation. He had another bad crisis starting mid january soil was pure ice and very hard.. Farrier came and put back his reversed horse shoes, did'nt help very much... i feel helpless... i'm waiting for his diet to be balanced to start somewhere... and his four hoofs flares as they grow...

After radios from his front feets in august, it was determined that the laminitis had evolved. I tought it was gone for good. And that he has very thin sole (7mm) He suffers from hypo thyroid, acceptable low limit of thyroid test... vet gave him Levrothyroxine sodium for three months.
And also i have been literally fighting with some kind of mud scabbies on his pastern since this summer... seems to be better with local cream application.

Since about a year, he does coprophagia, it worrys me since in summer his paddock is on sand...

Please help me to help him... i'm not shure that his horse shoes are the best for him... he talso take previcox, an anti-inflammatory  and this either does'nt seem to help much...and he can't do any exercise, except for walking... this is the only exercise i do with him, is going walk him with a leash half hour every day hoping to have his blood at least circulating a minimum... He has hoof boots, but farrier said not to put them on since it was keeping hoofs very hot, and it was no good for him. 
And he suffers from obesity, he is a 6-7 quote. Cresty neck, fat deposit on shoulders... no muscles, even when he was doing exercices... 
Thank you so much for help and support
--
MyriamD. QC, Canada, 2021

Aragon case history.pdf (groups.io)
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Myriam,

Looking at Aragon's x-rays from last year his toes are still quite long and he has a bit of a ski tip developing on his left coffin bone.  It's hard to say anything specific about his current trim other than it appears to be uneven behind and he doesn't appear to have very much sole on his front feet.  If you would like assistance with his trim we would need current x-rays and hoof pictures.  Directions on how to do those are in the Wiki: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help.

Looking at the pictures of Aragon he appears to have insulin resistance (his cresty neck being very obvious in the side shots).  With that in mind he could be experiencing winter laminitis. You can read more about this here: https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/winter-laminitis/. In order to stop the cycle of laminitis you need to remove the cause.  Anti-inflammatories are contraindicated in cases of metabolic laminitis.  If the medication isn't working there's no reason to continue giving it to him.  However, if he's been on it for an extended period of time you need to wean him off of it to avoid a rebound effect.

Start tapering by keeping the current dose the same but stretching out the intervals between doses. E.g.:START: 2 grams Bute once a day
DAY 1 through 3 of Taper: 2 grams every 36 hours
DAY 4 through 6 of Taper: 2 grams every 48 hours
DAY 7: 1.5 grams every 48 hours
DAY 8: 1.0 gram every 48 hours 
DAY 9: 0.5 gram once, then stop

If he's lame do not force him to exercise as this will only make his feet hurt more.  Make sure you read the section on exercise in your welcome letter: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/261693

In order to get his diet balanced you need to test his hay and then you can contact one of the balancers listed in our files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing (scroll down and open the HAY BALANCING-1.pdf file). 

You also need to know how much he should weigh.  How tall is he?  If he's a 7 at 1300lbs I would expect he needs to lose at least 200 pounds which would give him an ideal weight of 1100lbs.  We recommend feeding either 2% of ideal weight or 1.5% of current weight (whichever is more until his ideal weight is reached and then reevaluate his diet).  For Aragon that would mean he should be eating no more than 22lbs a day TOTAL.  That includes hay AND concentrates.  So you need to weigh his hay starting now and until you get it tested make sure you soak it as per the directions in the emergency diet (https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diet.php) and please stop the Purina Equalizer as it's not suitable for an IR horse.

It would be helpful for you to have your vet test Aragon's insulin level so you know if he is still in the danger zone for laminitis.

One last note - if you decide to stop the Thyro-L please be aware that you need to wean off of it so the thyroid can start to work again. While it may help with weight loss, it will not help reduce insulin levels.



Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Myriam
Well done for getting your links copied into your signature! Much easier for everyone to access your information. 
Have you read the information in your welcome message? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/261693

Let's get you started on one thing at a time. Number one: You need to start Aragon on the emergency diet. This will help him lose weight and it will help reduce pain in his feet. Even though the hay in your haytest photo is under 10% sugar+starch, some horses need lower sugar and starch to be comfortable. As he is sore, let's assume he needs some help with lowering the sugar and starch.

Step One: Estimate his weight. There's a link on how to do this in your welcome message. 
Step Two: Weigh out 1.5% of his current weight OR 2% of his ideal weight, whichever is greater, in dry hay. So if he weighs 500kg now [this is just an example], 1.5% of his current weight is 7.5kg. If his ideal weight is 450kg, then 2% of 450 is 9kg. 9kg is more than 7.5kg, so you would feed him 9kg of hay per day. Divide this up into as many feedings as you like. Many of us use haynets with small holes to make the hay last longer. 
Step Three: Soak the hay -- submerge it in plenty of water -- for one hour if the water is cold, 30 minutes if the water is hot. Drain the hay, and throw away the water where the horse can't drink it. Don't re-use the soaking water. 
Step Four: Don't feed any bagged feeds, no supplements, no treats, no grass even if it looks dead. Do feed salt, linseed (for omega 3 fatty acids), magnesium (about a teaspoon of mag oxide if you can find it) and Vitamin E (most of us use human gelatine capsules; make sure the capsules contain oil). Your hay has reasonably balanced major minerals, so if you can't get the magnesium, don't let that stop you starting the emergency diet. This diet is only temporary until you can get your hay balanced. 

If he starts to improve on the emergency diet, you could try feeding some of his hay without soaking. But first see how he goes for a week on this diet. 

Number two: You said that his laminitis was bad last January also, when it was very cold and icy. Have you tried keeping his legs and feet warm to see if this makes him more comfortable? Many horses that have experienced laminitis get sore again when the weather is very cold. Many of our members use pads (rubber, felt etc) and woollen socks in hoof boots, plus leg warmers in order to keep their horses comfortable in deep winter. If you haven't tried this, please do so, and let us know if it helps. If you haven't got boots, you can get creative with heavy-duty plastic bags taped on over socks and rubber pads, diapers, anything to keep the feet warm. There are many ideas in the Messages--do a search for "winter laminitis". 

Number three: Go back and read your welcome message :) There's a lot of information that should answer some of your questions. The only thing I would add after viewing your case history is that you don't seem to have tested his insulin--is this correct? If so, it would be wise if you could test it, as high insulin is a risk factor for laminitis. 

Our hoof-savvy moderators will be able to say more about his trim, but please remember that the best way to address inflammation in the feet is to fix the diet. 

And keep asking questions if anything is unclear.

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Myriam Desrosiers
 

Thank you so much for answering! Aragon is 14.3 hands. I will add it to his case history. I'm also waiting for an answer from the hoofs specialists wheter i keep or not his horse shoes. i can't put his boots on cause of the horse shoes... but i did put whool socks and leg warmers...started the emergency diet, without the beet pulps though, i'm waiting for it... so i just wet some hay for the powder to stick to, but he doesnt like it!! i have made another post for this, and i will try adding some camomil tea today... and i will take it easy !!
Vet will come in about a month. They don't do emergency because we're too far... I would have to take Aragon for a 8 hours drive in order to see the closest vet... We did it once when we did'nt knew what he had in 2017. I would like to get ready for the visit and take proper radios of his foots, and ask for all the blood work i need...i'm trying to figure out what they all are by reading on the site. 


--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Myriam,

Not a hoof exert, hopefully Candice or Lavinia will chime in, but I don't think boots are going to make his feet "too hot", especially in these winter conditions and considering you are trying to warm up his hooves.  The boots with pads will reduce the pressure on his compromised hoof walls by allowing the bottom of the foot to support more of his weight.  It will also allow you to file back his toes yourself between if you find your farrier isn't doing it enough.  Those thin soles will be very sensitive so he will need padded boots or soft surfaces.  Boots and pads will be more work and effort on your part, but the advantage is you can make frequent adjustments to his trim and pads yourself to improve his comfort, without waiting for the farrier.  His hind feet should be booted too.   Even though they look healthier trim-wise, he has bruising below the coffin bone in both his hind soles (suggesting to me that they are very thin, too! ) and they need protection.

The hypothyroid status is secondary to his EMS.  Getting his diet controlled and his insulin down will help with that.  He doesn't actually look like he is 1300 lbs (weight tapes are not always accurate), but either way he needs to lose weight.  The Thyro-L (Levrothyroxine) should help with weight loss, but you still have to reduce his hay intake.  Are you weighing the 20lbs of hay?  If after a month you don't see a reduction in crest and body weight on 20lbs/day, then it needs to be reduced even more.  You want slow and steady weight loss.  Our horses are all different but with my 15.1 easy keeper, feeding him 1.7% of his body weight in soaked hay seems to be the magic number to keep him at his ideal weight of 900 lbs, and a BCS of 4.5 (with no exercise)...but it took him a couple years to lose the extra 200 lbs...I didn't know what his ideal body weight was for sure until we got to it.  Soaking hay will also reduce calories a little bit,without reducing volume, plus the water in it adds weight so it might be more satisfying to Aragon.

The coprophagia is worrying but the first thing I would try is getting minerals balanced to his hay analysis, or if not that then adding Mad Barn's Amino Trace+ to his diet.  There are a few possible causes of coprophagia but the easiest thing to fix is making sure he is not lacking in anything his body needs and is trying to find by eating inappropriate things.  Do you use slow feed hay nets to try and make his hay last longer?  If he is hungry between meals it is likely due to high leptin, another sign of elevated insulin, so again getting his insulin down will help with that, too.

For bloodwork, I would request the "PPID panel" at U Guelph.  Their results are reliable and they are the lab in Canada we recommend.  It includes insulin, glucose and ACTH.  At his age, ACTH should be checked annually.  If you need T4, it can be added on.

Your Case History is not actually in Aragon's folder.  You can find it here: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=Aragon
Please delete the Case History form, and then go to your Case History folder and upload it in there.

I can't prove it but with my EMS horse I found that getting his diet fixed to reduce his insulin, and minerals balanced to his hay helped tremendously his overall health.  You might find the "mud scabbies" improve, too, on a low sugar, mineral-balanced diet.

Does Aragon have blue eyes?  He might like a black fly mask on in the winter to reduce the brightness of the snow.  It just looks like he can't open his eyes in the photos.  :)

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


TERRI JENNINGS
 

Gaurdian Masks are great for the horses with blue eyes/pink skin. They block 95% of UV rays. They are a bit expensive but they last a long time. 
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Myriam,

Thank-you for putting up all of Aragon's radiographs and some hoof photos.

The rads from 2017 show that the HPA on the LF was slightly broken back but the RF was fine. Both feet had thin soles, very long toes, underrun heels and some sinking. The trim was definitely problematic at that time. In the latest rads from Aug 2020, nothing about the trim had changed, his soles were still thin, sinking appears to have been about the same, the broken back HPA on the LF worsened and now the RF HPA is also broken back. Both coffin bones are just starting to develop ski tips, with the LF one being more advanced. This is due to the lever forces being applied to the coffin bone tips from the very long toes. You are correct that shoes are not going to fix any of this, esp. if the underlying trim isn't corrected first. I would recommend getting the shoes removed so you can get trims done on a more frequent basis. Boots and pads will likely make him a lot more comfortable, plus you can keep his feet warmer by putting socks inside of the boots.

His trim needs to be addressed by bringing his horizontal toe length back a lot and getting his heels moved back to where they should be. His soles and frogs need to be left completely alone to allow them to develop depth and calloused surfaces.

If you would like some mark-ups to help guide the trims, I'll need a full set of hoof photos (all four feet). Here's what is needed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

It's helpful if the laterals contain part of the cannon bone as well as the hoof. If you can get the shoes pulled before taking the photos that would be really helpful so that the entire sole is visible.

You really need to get his insulin tested, as well as a retest of the glucose and ACTH. Cortisol does not need to be tested as it is not valid for PPID or EMS/IR diagnosis. Glucose is very susceptible to handling errors and the glucose result from his last blood work is suspiciously low, indicating that there may have been a delay in separating the sample, or possibly some mishandling of the sample between the time it was drawn and when it reached the lab. This could also impact the ACTH as well, so it makes that previous result questionable. At 16yo, PPID is a possibility which could also be driving the pain in his feet. That would need to be treated with meds.

Hang in there, we'll help you get this sorted out for your boy.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


 

Hi Myriam, 
I love to look at maps so I took a peak at where you live.  Fascinating.  My friends took their boat from Vermont down the St Lawrence to the ocean and then down the coast and it occurred to me that they may have stopped there to restock.
So, seeing where you live and your very low glucose report, I had the same concerns as Lavinia about getting your blood samples to the lab without degradation.  That is something I would definitely look into before having more blood drawn.  Do you have a small animal vet in town?  Many of our members have enlisted their help when drawing blood and getting it tested.  They, of course, would need to be aware of the same degradation concerns.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Myriam Desrosiers
 

Thank you so much everybody, i fell like i'm taken by the hand... i can already see some improvement of Aragon condition already. Crazy!!! I did weighted him with the tape and he is 1117 pounds, i will go correct it on his case history. i think i might not have done it properly the first time... I ordered a mask for his pretty blue eyes too...
In the day time, he is doing better, in the morning and at night he seems to have more difficulty.. At this time of the year, days are cool, and night gets really cold.. could it be related to his pain? 
For his hoofs, i am scared of doing this myself... I will if i have too, actually i would do anything for him! But i'm really scared of doing something wrong. I'm just getting use to work with a grate, to shorten his toe. Seems like i will have to do it anyways if nothing have change between 2017 and 2020..  I will do my best, starting by taking these horse shoes off and take the pictures needed. I have found a pair of easy rider boots that he had in 2017 :) for his hinds he has cavallo treck boots and old mac's G2... and i think i can add studs for ice... Can you guys tell me wich boots would work better?

There is a small animal vet in town, but they won't come to draw his blood because of an insurance matter!! You guys think i could do it with a human device for blood sugar testing?? But after talking with both vets, ( horse and small animal in town) They agree that they would test his sugar level in town, but that won't be until April :( 
Is the broken back can be reversed in his hoofs? Will he be able still to run on our never ending sand beach (in summer)? 
Ok, i will try finding his ideal weight, for now i'm giving him 9 Kilos of hay/day. I still did'nt receive the beet pulp... probably tuesday. And i will redo the hay analysis with A&L Lab. 
You guys are awesome and so generous. Thank you. 

--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Myriam Desrosiers
 

Hi Lavinia, i have posted Aragon's hoof picture in his album. I waited on the farrier to come to take off his horse shoes.... Can i get the pictures marked up please? And please tell me if there is fees for the service. Thank you so much!
--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Myriam,

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll get those mark-ups for you in the next couple of days. There is no fee for the first set.

Did the farrier do a trim when the shoes were pulled or just pull the shoes?

When is the next trim appointment?

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Myriam Desrosiers
 

It was a different farrier... I think he did a better job since he trimed Aragon with much less toe than the other farrier does it usually and did'nt took off any sole... So yeah, he took off the shoe and trimed him... I'm curious to know what you think :) Next visit is in 7 weeks... or maybe 4 for my usual farrier. But i think i'm gonna do it myself....very little by little with the rasp and probably change farrier... 

I also had hay correctly analysed this time! And sent i-mail to hay balancer. I see incredible improvements from the begining, He is wearing the soft ride boots, soxes and his legs are wrap, and now moves around normally without too much pain. He even tryed to play my mare today. loll. 

Thank you


--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Myriam,

When the rads were done Aug 24, 2020, was it only the LF foot?

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Myriam Desrosiers
 

I look at them and, yes, it's only the left foot... I will contact vet see if she still has the right foot.... i had only left foot sent in an i-mail....Sorry for that! 
--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Myriam Desrosiers
 

Hi! I've put  a new picture of Aragon's Right front foot from this morning... I kind of worry how it looks, like the wall is detaching from the hoof!? There's cracks and i had a hard time cleaning the wood chips between  the white line and the hoof.. Could it be because it's too dry? 
I don't have his right foot radios. The vet sent me twice the left foot. 
Thank you
--
MyriamD, Qc, Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Myriam%20and%20Aragon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260540


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Myriam,

That's stretched white line that is from the feet being allowed to flare over time. It looks like the walls are also being left longer than the sole, so that is putting even more pressure on the already disconnected growth. Getting the trim tightened up will take care of the problem.

Thanks for checking about the rads.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR