Butterscotch and Naomi first post


naomi.dechaine@...
 

Hi there! I have been haunting this group for a while and figuring out how to navigate and get my documents up. I have a case study up now, am trying to get some hoof pics up from last night, and have lots of questions. If anyone has a chance to take a look and let me know if I am doing this right just getting set up on here, and if this is the right way to post questions it would be much appreciated! Thanks!

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch

--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021


 

Hello Naomi,

Good job getting your case history created. Thank you very much, these details about Butterscotch's diet, test, etc are needed by our volunteers in order to give you safe advice for your pony.

Unfortunately some vets are just not up to speed on blood draws for testing for PPID (Cushings) and IR (Insulin Resistance). You will find more information below which you need to read to educate yourself. Diagnosis and blood test protocols are important for you to understand. When my first IR horse developed IR I was referred to this organization by a trimmer who was also an ECIR member. I fortunately found that my long time equine vet was very familiar with the protocols recommended by ECIR. however  many equine/large animal vets are not on the same page. So educating yourself and insisting on the specific test and blood draw protocols is important. When I moved to another region I found it helped to send my new vet links to the ECIR website (link to ECIR website is below) and explained that I requested he read the diagnosis section and use those protocols. In the USA my preferred Lab is the Cornell University Lab. We have many Canadian members so you will be able to get info about which Canadian labs are preferred. 

Your pony should have Insulin levels tested in addition to the ACTH and Glucose. Difference in cost will probably be very little as most labs have a package of test available. For any questions you have immediately please reply to this message initially. Our experienced moderators and volunteers will be checking for new member messages and can answer you immediate questions about diet, tests, etc.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Naomi,

The University of Guelph is the lab we recommend in Canada.  They have a PPID package that includes ACTH, insulin and glucose.  They also have an EMS Package that adds on leptin, which is out-sourced to Cornell, and T4 -- it is much more expensive and we don't generally recommend leptin anymore, so I request the PPID package personally.  I wouldn't be as concerned about doing the thyroid hormones.  They are usually a bit low in EMS and PPID horses as a secondary effect of their EMS/PPID.  Getting their primary condition under control should resolve the low thyroid hormones.  Then, if you still have concerns, you can have them tested.

Hopefully your vet is familiar with handling the blood: chilled/on ice until it can be spun within 2 hours, then frozen and shipped by overnight courier with ice packs.  In a rural area it can be difficult to ship overnight, so making sure the sample is frozen is critical.  Also best to send it out on a Monday so it can be received by the lab during the week and not sit over the weekend. 

Butterscotch's glucose was above the lab range, and is actually at diabetic levels.  I would definitely have it retested with insulin to confirm it before worrying too much, it could be due to inappropriate diet.  My horse first tested almost within the diabetic range (close enough that he appeared to be effectively diabetic), but after I got his insulin and EMS better controlled by diet his glucose has been normal.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lorna Cane
 

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:29 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Hopefully your vet is familiar with handling the blood: chilled/on ice until it can be spun within 2 hours
Hi Kirsten,

Can you clarify this ,for those with timing issues? Cornell requires this be done within 4 hours.
Does Guelph require only 2 ? I couldn't find it on their site, and  I should be clear on this for future testing.

Thanks.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Thanks for catching that, Lorna.  I could have sworn I recently saw a recommendation to keep it to 2 hrs before spinning, but of course I can't find it now.  This post from Jaini backs up what you are saying with the 4hrs:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/174869


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lorna Cane
 

Oh,thanks,Kirsten.

So sample needs to  be spun sometime within 4 hours of being pulled . That's a relief.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


naomi.dechaine@...
 

Thanks so much for the info!

About how much is the PPID package? The vet I was using said it was a separate test that would cost me another $250 on top of the $150 I paid for just ACTH wherever she was sending. 
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021


naomi.dechaine@...
 


Thanks for all the info! This is all really overwhelming for me. I have had horses all my life, grew up on a farm that bred/raised/trained Arabs, but that was years ago - care of horses seemed a lot simpler back then and where we are at now is not well set up for this kind of care nor have I needed to pour this kind of finances into any one animal before. I am the mom of four kids, only income earner for our household and trying to maintain our herd of 7 equines. 

Excuses out of the way, I want to give it a shot to manage this pony as my daughter who had a terrible accident on a horse we got for her last summer is finally back in good health and falling in love with this PPID mare. 

I decided to try starting with the soaked/rinsed beat pellets and trying to get some minerals into her. I can only reliably be out to feed once daily and I am the sole caregiver. So far she has only been accepting beets one or two days a week though I offer them every day. I first offer with mineral, then without but when she doesn't want it it doesn't seem to make a difference, when she does she eats with mineral. I have been trying a few weeks now. 
Questions:
-How long to soak beet pulp and is it necessary to rinse at beginning and end of soak? 
-Is rice bran pellets ok in part or as alternative? Any other alternatives to beet even if just to act for a carrier for mineral/meds?
-So far I have only been able to get her Prascend tablets into her with a piece of apple/carrot or a small handful of oats, which I know are no-no's. Since she won't eat anything else yet how can I get it into her? 
-If medicated and no laminitis how much grass could we get away with? She is currently in corrals with grass but with 3 other ponies so they keep it super short... Stressed grass but not getting high volume. This is the big kicker I think I might have to sell her to someone with better set up if she isn't supposed to get any grass at all. 


Thanks!!
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

My vet charges me 250$ for the PPID panel at U Guelph.  I was sure that included a markup, but maybe it doesn't?  Shipping is extra, as are all other related fees (call out, pull, processing,  etc) etc.  

Considering your vet did not do the tests you asked for from the start, resulting in significant added expense to you, I hope they offer you a discount, at least for the cost of the original ACTH test or their call out fees.

However, we would recommend retesting ACTH at least after 3 weeks at the prescribed dose to make sure it's effective anyways, and also testing in mid-late July as a general rule before the seasonal rise ramps up.  So if you want to arrange the PPID panel for mid-late July, you'll be covering all your bases for retesting ACTH.   Since Butterscotch isn't laminitic, nor does she sound like she has EMS based on your Case History (despite being a mix of high risk breeds!), you can probably wait on the insulin and glucose until then, too.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I have always soaked the next day's beet pulp 24 hrs (until the next feeding) for convenience, but in hot weather try to keep it cooler.  Best to rinse at beginning and end, but if you can only rinse once I'd do it at the end and be thorough.

Rice bran is risky.  It's very high in starch, which can be very bad for an EMS horse, or a PPID horse with elevated insulin.  Soy hull pellets are safe and can be fed soaked or dry with the beet pulp, or instead of it.  I wet them to get the minerals to stick, then feed before they turn to mush.  If you can find Ontario Dehy Timothy Complete cubes (Feed Store to your Door near Edmonton has them), they are safe, too.  They can be soaked, or steamed in hot water, to make a damp mash for the minerals to stick to.  1 cup dry expands significantly when soaked to a mash.

Without checking her insulin it's hard to know if the pasture she is getting is an issue.  If she only has PPID, and you keep it well controlled with pergolide, the pasture probably won't be a problem.  Fall pasture, during the seasonal ACTH rise, is probably riskiest for a PPID horse.  If her insulin shows that she has EMS, the pasture will be an issue.  Small amounts of high sugar grass can cause laminitis in EMS horses.  Not knowing her insulin makes the risk hard to evaluate, but the info in your Case History doesn't seem to suggest she has EMS.

One tiny slice of carrot to feed her pergolide is fine. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Naomi,

Just want to say that many of us don't have a money orchard in the back forty. We have learned,after years of frustration and anxiety, how to manage these horses with the least amount of money possible. Using compounded pergolide,instead of the more expensive Prascend is a start. 
Others will chip in to give you ideas about other substitutes.
While I'm here,soy hull pellets are a good substitute for beet pulp,as a carrier. They have almost the same nutritional profile,but....tada....just need to be dampened down(to avoid choke),instead of being rinsed/soaked/rinsed.They are less expensive,too,at least here in the Kingston area .
Hang in.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Lorna Cane
 

Naomi,many of us use peanut shells in which to hide the tablets/capsules. Just remove one or both halves of the peanut carefully,add the meds and close back up.Bob's your uncle.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Lesley Fraser
 

You sound pretty busy already, but if you have any spare time there’s a great recipe in the ECIR files for suitable horse treats made from flax seed, unsweetened apple sauce and cinnamon. It's useful as a general treat, but it's easy to squish a Prascend tablet inside a square of it without Butterscotch noticing. Perhaps your daughter could take on the role of pony cake baker.

Lesley

--
Lesley and over the bridge Omar,
11-2012, Cambridge, UK

Omar - Case History


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Naomi,


As Kirsten already noted Rice Bran can be problematic for many IR horses and since she's a breed that can be IR until you are able to get an insulin level on her I would err on the side of not feeding that nor letting her out on grass. 

As far as feeding amounts - you have her listed as currently being 800lbs which would be FAT for a 12.3 pony.  Looking at the pictures you shared they're not the best angle to judge, but she does not look THAT fat.  If you don't have a weight tape could you perhaps use the calculator https ://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weights%20and%20Measures/How%20to%20Find%20Ideal%20Body%20Weight.pdf to determine her current weight?  I would expect her to be about 550 - 600lbs at that height and to feed her accordingly you need to feed either 1.5% of her current weight or 2% of her ideal weight - whichever is more.  IF she truly is 800lbs she should be eating no more than 16 pounds a day TOTAL (including hay and enough carrier to get her supplements in).  You have her as eating somewhere between 12 - 18lbs of hay and a pound of dry beet pulp which is maybe more than she needs.  Even erring on the high side she should be eating no more than 12lbs a day max if she really is 600lbs. 

To administer Prascend, I'm a fan of syringing to make sure it all gets in the horse or pony, but you can use a the end of a carrot and core it out to hide the pill in it, a small piece of apple and stick the pill in it, a peanut shell or a pony pill pocket (not the molasses version) to get her to eat it.



naomi.dechaine@...
 

Wow all this info is truly reassuring, I am very grateful for all these responses! 

Sherry Morse - re: weight that was a rough guestimate, I might not be that good a judge but I keep meaning to take her measurements and put in the calculator. Thanks for mentioning it hopefully I will remember with chores tonight! Hay is a bit of a guestimate too as she shares with 3 others in the corral with her. 
 

--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934


naomi.dechaine@...
 

Regarding weight, I measured length and barrel tonight per instructions and double checked height (still 12.3hh!). Plugged into the formula and came up with 371kg (817 pounds) - so I was closer than I thought!! I got some more pics better angle - will try to add to album so hopefully makes more sense.
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934