Need Advice On Evaluating Relevante's Numbers-Hay Analysis


Lynn
 

I will apologize in advance for not having Relevante's Case History up to date [last posting was June 3, 2021]. I broke my leg in June [non-horse related] and have been recovering at my folks place and don't have access to all my documents. I had just rehabbed Relevante to the point of a 1-hour long trail ride when I had my little accident. I'll try to be concise. Our barn owners bought used equipment to cut/bale their own hay this year. They were able to cut it at its prime [June] and I managed to get help with pulling core samples and sent it to Equi-Analytical for analysis. I also had Relevante's ACTH tested in June.  In July I had the hay balanced and today got Relevante's insulin test results back from Cornell. Here are all the results....
June ACTH test - 19.4 pg/mL
June 30, 2021 Hay Analysis - ESC 9.0, Starch .9
August 5, 2021 Insulin  - 44.74 ulU/ml
                     EMS Calculator - RISQI 0.15
The hay analysis sent me into a minor panic because according to my understanding it barely makes the safety cut-off. It did initially cause loose stool but that has finally resolved. My vet wasn't concerned and I attributed that to change of diet.
His ACTH test came back the lowest it has ever been since diagnosis
His insulin test came back the highest it has ever been...
His hay balancing came back as follows:

              You can continue with CA Trace Plus, which has a little more copper and zinc than you need.  Continue adding the magnesium oxide, but discontinue the monosodium                        phosphate, and the additional copper and zinc.   Also continue feeding the salt and flax oil. You are adding more selenium, vitamin A, and biotin to what's already in the CA                Trace Plus, but they won't hurt the balancing if you want to continue with them.  It looks like you're covered for vitamin E.  These items don't affect the hay balancing, so                    you can continue or discontinue as you see fit:

 

California Trace Plus

EQ-Tendon [Uckele]

EQ-Muscle [Uckele}

Vitamin E/Selenium pellets [Uckele]

Jiaogulan

Biotin [Uckele]

Thiamine [Uckele]

Aloe Vera [Uckele]

Mov-Ease

Hemp Joint [Uckele]

Hemp Daily Support [Uckele]

Forco

Vitamin A – 40,000 IU [per Dr. K]

2 T daily of Salt

Flax seed oil form

Cocosoya oil

He is not foot sore. Since I broke my leg i have been paying people to free lunge him in the arena - warm up walk, gait, canter, walk etc. for 45 minutes a session with us trying to get him up to 20 minutes of gait/canter - he has handled that very well. He has no crest, no bulging above the eyes, no other visual symptoms of uncontrolled ACTH or insulin. We have kept up with 4-week trims and done paid consulting with Lavinia to keep feet in check and progressing to optimal trim.
I am paranoid about the hay analysis and the high insulin. And I don't know what the EMS Calculator number means. Should I be concerned and take other actions? Is the high insulin maybe related to the rise? I am still on crutches/no weight bearing but my neice has been driving me to the farm once a week so i can check on him, brush him [carefully] and keep his supplements/oils stocked. I continue to watch him closely for any symptoms and am trying not to be in dread of something awful happening that will set him back.  Thanks for any advice - I apologize this is so long. 

 

--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lynn, I’m so sorry to learn of your accident!  I almost decided to rename our farm ‘Broken Leg Farm’ due to all the broken legs sustained here by me and our menagerie.  Then I decided that might not be good karma.  I hope you are healing well.  Before long it will be little more than a memory, something to add to your list of life’s interesting adventures.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Lynn
 

I went to the farm today to check on the boy/drop off supplements and groom/clean feet/fly spray him. When i cleaned his feet he showed no signs of foot soreness or wanting to put his foot down. I took a photo of his crest last week as a baseline, took another today and loaded both in his album. His crest this week - right in the middle- seemed a bit hard...he had a medical massage on July 24 and we were remarking that that area felt flexible. I am feeling just a bit panicky due to what I outlined above and then what i thought I felt today. I did ask our barn butler to feel Relevante's crest as well...after doing that he went to another horse and felt their's for comparison. He said it might be a bit harder....another thing I noticed today was that some bits of grass here and there have popped up in his paddock in a few places. With the broken leg the paddock has gotten away from me a bit. I'm going to get out there and taken care of that with my vinegar solution when I go out there Monday for his chiropractor appointment. i'm wondering that could also be contributing to his higher insulin number.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lynn,

Sorry to hear about your broken leg...just when things were really starting to move ahead for you and Relevante!   I hope you have a quick recovery!

You don't mention anything about soaking hay.  Is the new hay being soaked?  It's also not clear if the insulin result was from before Relevante started on the new hay, or after?  The date for your insulin says Aug 5 but his blood was not actually pulled on Aug 5, right?

Insulin in the 40's, while normal for some horses despite all measures taken to lower it, makes me nervous based on my limited experience.  Shaku had a laminitic flareup last year after he got in to a few (5?) lbs of his buddy's hay that tested 9.9% s+s.  His insulin was already in the low 40's (the vet had pulled blood 1 week prior and his diet was the same) and I think the addition of his buddy's hay put him over the edge.  Cutting off access to his buddy's hay did not stop the laminitis pain, though, I actually had to start soaking his regular 7% hay to see a reduction in pain.  So I am overly cautious, and seeing how hard you've worked to get to a point where you are riding again, it would be terrible to have a setback.  My suggestion is to soak the hay to be safe, at least until YOU can be back in the barn daily to monitor Relevante yourself, and can test his insulin on the new hay, unsoaked (if you haven't already).

I can't be 100% sure but his Aug 7 crest does look a smidge bigger to me.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lynn
 

Hi Kirsten,

Thanks so much for your response. 
You don't mention anything about soaking hay.  Is the new hay being soaked?  It's also not clear if the insulin result was from before Relevante started on the new hay, or after?  The date for your insulin says Aug 5 but his blood was not actually pulled on Aug 5, right?
--The new hay which he has been on for at least a couple months - maybe a bit more  - has not been and is currently not being soaked. The insulin test was done after he started on the new hay because when I got the hay analysis back from the lab it scared me.

I can't be 100% sure but his Aug 7 crest does look a smidge bigger to me.
I think so too....Gulp!

We are kind of in a pickle at the farm. The gal that has been taking care of our horses is pregnant. The young couple that always worked on her days off and was going to take over just got diagnosed with COVID and both are very ill.  The barn owners...my friends...and their two daughters and the barn butler [who is in his mid-70s] are doing all the work including bringing in a second cutting...I don't know if soaking is possible. I did reach out to gentleman who grows low-sugar Teff hay. It tested very low in suger/starch and Relevante ate that for more than year but the barn hay came down into a good safety zone. I haven't heard back from him yet...

I feel ill.

Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lynn
 

My hay guy didn't plant Teff this year. I plan to implement hay soaking when i go tomorrow for Relevante's chiropractor appointment even if i have to pay someone to do it. My vet is coming out August 25 for vaccinations etc. If we start soaking tomorrow ...is it too soon to test insulin again on the 25th when my vet comes? And should I also do ACTH even though we are going into the rise? Thanks.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

I think Kirsten's a bit more of an expert on testing after starting to soak, but I'd think the 2 weeks should be enough to tell if you're on the right track by looking at changes in his crest as well as the actual numbers.  I'm not sure I'd be as concerned about his ACTH right now since the number was good when you got him checked last time.




Lynn
 

Thanks Sherry!
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lynn,

Insulin drops most dramatically right away with soaking, but apparently insulin sensitivity continues to improve with time.  I allow 1-2 weeks of diet change before I get blood pulled but that's an arbitrary period I chose.

It sounds like it will be hard to find someone to soak it at the moment as everything is really conspiring against making it easy to do.  Would it be better to replace half the hay with the TC Timothy Balance Cubes, for now at least?  It's another option at least.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lynn
 

My niece took me to the farm today and I got the boy all set up with a hay bag and upright cooler on wheels for hay soaking. When my vet comes the 25th I'll have him do another insulin test to see where we are.  I'm already looking at alternatives because I'm 99 percent sure it's the hay driving the insulin up. I won't be able to source my own hay because there is literally no room to put it. So Kirsten I was really interested in your idea to substitute Ontario Timothy Balance Cubes for half his hay consumption. I can order 50 lb. bags but how do I figure out how much of the cubes to give him. Do those have to be soaked or can we feed them dry?  I posted another shot of his crest and a couple side body shots in his album. That was about all I could manage on crutches.  He still has his hollows above his eyes and the chiropractor feels his topline loss and slight belly is largely due to lack of fitness - all the downtime he's had.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018 
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

You substitute the hay cubes at a 3lbs of cubes for 4lbs of hay ratio.  Most people wet them down to 'fluff them up' which takes less than 5 minutes. If they're haying a bunch of horses and they start by putting water in the cubes then hay everybody else by the time they give the cubes to Relevante they'll be fine. (That's what we do at my farm).



Kirsten Rasmussen
 

You can substitute the cubes for all of his hay consumption if you wish, at the ratio Sherry provided.  But I assumed half would give you a big enough drop in sugar to bring the average ESC+starch well under 10%.  Not sure how you can mix them all up so the meal reflects that average, unless you do dampen the cubes until they fall apart then mix them in to his usual hay.

Don't forget to reduce his minerals accordingly.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Lynn
 

Thanks Sherry and Kirsten!

The other thing I'm going to do now that the second cutting has been cut/baled is test it as well. My hay balancer who lives in my area said there was a substantial difference in sugar levels between their first and second cuttings. In the meantime we'll keep soaking while I continue to get my ducks in a row. Thanks again so much for the help/advice.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Deb Walker
 

I've only been doing a quick scan of posts as of late...but saw this and wanted to express my get well wishes for your broken leg. So sorry and hope that healing is quick.

Since I am always watching for crest changes as well, I can detect a difference from the earlier pic to the latest one as well. Something I started doing many years ago is using a regular inch measuring tape and measuring the base of Scotty's neck, and the middle, to keep track. Like using a weight tape, it's hit and miss a bit in determining that you are measuring the exact same spots, but overall, it has given me a picture of going up, down, or maintaining.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Lynn
 

Hi Deb,
Thanks so much! And thanks for the great tip and for the extra set of eyes to confirm a difference in his crest. I'm hoping we headed this thing off at the pass.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lynn
 

We started soaking hay August 9. Today when my niece took me to the farm, I examined Relevante and his crest is softening and I believe from the photo I took today that it "looks" to be returning to a more normal profile. I took core samples today from the second cutting hay and will get that sent off Monday. I'm starting to feel we nipped this in the bud before the dreaded " L word" could rear its ugly head.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Good job, Lynn.

Just shows you how well you know your boy.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

I think you did nip a potential problem about as fast as anybody could so good for you.  I hope you're back to normal soon and can get to enjoy your boy who BTW looks wonderful!




Lynn
 

Thank you for the words of encouragement Lavinia and Sherry. But you know I have to say that it has take a village - of all of you - to help us get to the point of recovery and then continue to navigate this ongoing journey of maintaining his health and keeping things continually sorted out.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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