New member My Mare Chicy diagnosed with Founder 9/15/2021 at just less than 3 months in foal
Hello Everyone,
Glad to have found this group through my friend Kim. This is my first experience with founder. Chicy was a 16 year old maiden mare who was bred on June 26 via AI and had a viable foal at 28 days. All was going great then suddenly last week she began acting like she was painful all over and limping on her left front. Several horses in the area are being diagnosed with abscesses and I thought perhaps that was the case. I only allow her on grass 2 hours a day so founder was not even on my mind. My vet and other local vets in this area are short handed and I asked my vet about what I was seeing (they actually AI'd Chicy) and without seeing her they said it was probably hormones from being in foal and to give her a gram of bute and set up an appointment for the following week which was the earliest they could see her. . The bute seemed to help her out but I did not want to continue after giving 1 gram more than one time as I did not want to cover up any symptoms at her appointment. To be honest I thought she had an abscess and I was wrapping her foot with a poultice pad which has worked well for me in the past. When I went to the vet appointment Wednesday they could see she was in a lot of pain and could barely move (which I had explained when I requested the appointment). Ex rays showed rotation of both front feet with left being the worse (but not through the sole). She is standing square but having difficulty walking. Vet suggested it was not a good idea to have a mare in foal with founder and sent me home as he had and emergency C section for another client. I had a ton of questions and Kim who is in this group made a post on my behalf and Dr Kellon recommended an ultra sound to determine if still a viable foal. We had the ultra sound today and the determination was made the foal is no longer viable. They could feel the foal but no heartbeat. They went in 4 different times to be sure. She was given a shot of lutalyce to help abort the foal. They are coming up with a plan for next week to support her needs regarding the loss of the foal and making sure she is clean and open (may involve more ultra sounds, more lutalyce, lavage and oxytosis). Next week blood will be pulled from Chicy here at the barn to sent via vet for a metabolic panel to Cornell to check for IR and Cushings. She has not been drinking water as usual and was getting dehydrated and the vet gave her 5 liters fluids IV today which seemed to help her out. She is eating and pooping good. Not peeing but maybe due to not drinking. I noticed today she seemed to have drank several gallons this afternoon so hope that is behind us. With Kim's yesterday assistance I now have switched her fescue hay and Triple Crown Lite to orchard grass soaked and Triple Crown Natural Timothy cubes along with some vitamins and minerals. We have also backed up her toes and put 3 layers of Styrofoam pads on the front feet. She is confined to the barn with deep shavings. My farrier will be here in the next couple of days to back up her toes a little more and change out the bottom 2 pads. I will take measurments at that time and order some therapy boots. So that is it. The last 2 days have been a crash course in how to take care of a foundered mare. We are beyond sad to lose the baby and would like more answers on why the baby did not survive and if that could have caused the founder. I am sure I will have a ton more of questions as time goes on. At this moment we are in shell shock. Just want my girl to recover and be pain free. I can say since having the Styrofoam pads and toes backed up she seems more comfortable on her feet but her body is very sore all over and she seems a little stiff. Once I get her moving she seems to improve a bit. She did stand in one place in her stall most of yesterday, last night and this morning before going to the vet. This afternoon she is munching hay in a different area of the barn which tells me she her feet do not hurt as much.. I do not have email on my phone where my pictures are. Is there a way i can post directly with out email? And a way to post pictures without using email? All the photos and files I find seem to be for possible admin documentation. Would like to show ex rays of feet and a picture of my beautiful amazing girl. Thank you for listening and hoping for some good information to help us move forward and put this behind us. -- Janet Chester SC 09/17/2021
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Sherry Morse
Hello Janet, Welcome to the group! I am so very sorry that you're going through this. While we can be a resource for you in general terms of dealing with laminitis it's difficult to say if your mare's issues are related to a metabolic cause or something else completely (toxicity due to the fetus dying being the most likely cause). I will include our very detailed welcome message here but as far as your technical questions: To post directly on the group go to this link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topics - that will allow you to read all group messages and if you want to type an email out you would click on the New Topic section on the left hand menu. To share pictures you need to join the Case History sub-group and then go to the photos section and create an album named "Janet and xxx". You would then open that folder and upload pictures directly there. We do not allow pictures to be sent via email. With that here's the welcome letter so get comfortable, it's a lot to read.
The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message
with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any
trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause. There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Janet,
One thing I would suggest is taking her temperature twice a day. Did she abort the fetus yet?
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Thank you Dr Kellon. That is a mystery. The vet ultra sounded her yesterday and said they could feel the fetus but could not see it on ultra sound. I spoke with a breeder friend of mine today and she told me it sounds like possibly they feel the placenta since not sign of fetus or heartbeat on ultra sound. They think the foal may have been aborted a couple of weeks ago when I noticed her slowing down and acting different. my breeder friend asked me if they did blood work, culture or lavage before breeding which they did not. I rely on et to tell me as I do not know protocol My friend suspects possible her progesterone levels may have been too high to breed that could result in this situation Any and all help is welcome. Chicy is so stiff she can barely move. My concern is if placenta caused founder and us still in her will she continue to get worse? --
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Dr Kellon. My vet was supposed to give me a copy of the ultra sound but we're too busy. Hope to get it Monday
-- Janet Chester SC 09/17/2021
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Your concern is warranted. A retained placenta most definitely could do this. Those temps are OK but keep taking them. Is there any vaginal drainage? Hopefully they will make sure she is cleaned out on Tuesday. Any chance your breeder friend's vets could see her before then?
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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I'd also like to mention for those of you in areas where it's hard to get an equine vet, you could check for bovine vets especially if you have a serious situation like this.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Frances C
Janet, while looking for signs in the pasture, keep an eye open for birds ,especially crows gathering around an area. They may be on to something.
-- - Frances C. December 2017, Washington & California Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382
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Hi Dr Kellon - In my case my regular vet bred Chicy. They just do not seem to have experience in this situation. I am hoping they will come here to do the ultra sound and lavage Tuesday. The only other option is for me to load her up with pain killers to get her to them which I do not want to do. I will ask them tomorrow if they can do the ultrasound and lavage tomorrow in case she has a retained placenta. With them saying they could feel the foal but not get it on ultrasound if begs so many needed answers. I could not find anything in the pasture this morning. But no horse has been in a week. Even the poop I found was all dried up. No sign of birds. If anything was there it is gone now. temp this am was 99.9. Farrier coming this
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Oh! My vet is also a bovine vet. My neighed had a cow with a still born who retained the placenta and had to have 3 oxytosis injections to expel. Won't these injections increase her possibility to founder even worse. That med puts them in labor. Seems like that would be really hard on Chicy.
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Sherry Morse
A 2- 3 month old fetus is maybe 3 - 4oz at most so trying to find a trace at this point is going to be difficult, unfortunately.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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A lot has happened since my last post on Friday night. My farrier came out and moved Chicy's toes back a little more. I was able to find a somewhat local vet that came to my farm and ultra sounded Chicy. He could not see the foal but said it is resting on her bladder. He could see the unbiblical cord, the embryonic fluid and placenta. He could not see the fetus so was unable to determine if the fetus is viable. He will come back in 10 days hoping the fetus will reposition and he can see it. He said if the fetus is not alive she will expel it and not to worry about the placenta since she is 80 days and the placenta is very small.
He accessed Chicy's feet and said her heels are way too far forward which is causing stress on her flexor tendon that supports the coffin bone. Indicated long toes and forward heels would be a contributing factor to set her up to founder. He said she needs a wedge and frog support. He made a small frog support that will act as a wedge and indicated this should give her some relief in her deep flexor tendon and also take the pressure off her sole in front of the frog where her coffin bone is pushing down on her thin sole. He recommended due to her pain she be on bute 1 gram 2 x day for a few days until she gets into her therapy boots with a wedge and frog support. I ordered the Cloud boots today and a thin frog support pad that can go inside the boot on top of the small wedge that comes with it. We are hopping this will provide some relief and can get her moving around instead of standing and laying in a stall all day. He recommended holding off on the metabolic panel for a couple of weeks until she has less pain. He is on board with her new ECIR diet. My farrier will be calling him for detailed instructions until I can get up to speed in this group on trims and such and get him some information (he does not want to join the group but is interested in reading the hoof treatment methodology). So much going an and I work a full time job as well as take care of my farm so I myself have not had much time to dive into the group documentation at this point. This has been a total merry-go-around for me. I have a lot of confidence in this vet and it is wonderful to have someone so knowledgeable come to Chicy to save her so much stress and pain from a trailer ride. I still do not have the answers I was seeking but feel I am now on track to get them. The vet said we have time to make decisions about the foal if it is still alive which he thinks is a strong possibility. He also said once we get her in the boots and pain under control he feels she could carry and take care of the foal. So here we go again. By the way, Dr Kellon, this vet is a bovine, pig, sheep and horse vet. He hold clinics at his farm on AI and raises all the same animals on his farm and teaches husbandry and holds an open house annually. His farm is a working farm. I feel like Chicy is fortunate to have him and he makes emergency calls as well. What more could a horsey girl ask for? lol. Thank you, Dr Kellon, for suggesting a bovine vet which jogged my memory about this particular vet. When I called him today with my situation he was very responsive and arrived here in a couple of hours. -- Janet and Chicy Chester SC 09/17/2021
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Sherry Morse
Janet, Getting a full set of hoof pictures and any x-rays of her feet posted (directions here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) will help us better help you. Once you have the photos posted if you send a note with the topic "hoof trim help needed" it will alert us that you have those up and need some help with determining steps forward. If there's any chance the fetus is still alive do keep Chicy off any fescue going forward.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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I have done my best to figure out how to create a case history and photo album. I am sure he needs some work. The pictures are not perfect. Will try for better ones. She stepped out of stall and I had the opportunity to take them. The one strip of tape is on each front to hold the small frog support and heel wedge in place the vet put on her yesterday. My new vet has his own ideas. My farrier is not cooperating with me and ignores my requests. This is going yo be a struggle to get them on board. I am in my 70s with stage 3 osteoporosis and osteoarthritis so my back can only handle so much bending over. This is going to be interesting.
-- Janet and Chicy Chester SC 09/17/2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/1%20Case%20History%20Form%20and%20Instructions/Janet%20and%20Chicy/Chicy%20Case%20History.pdf https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/new_member_my_mare_chicy/85689752?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,2,0,85689752,previd=1632260036147920522,nextid=1632184774222308083&previd=1632260036147920522&nextid=1632184774222308083
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Janet,
Thanks for adding the rads and some pictures. Here is the link to Chicy's photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334 I've changed that on your signature so it will go to the right place in future posts. Know that you aren't alone in trying to get your vet and farrier on the same page - may members here can really relate to those issues. Your vet is correct that her toes are too far out in front of her and that her heels are severely underrun and that this is both causing issues on its own plus likely contributed to her feet really taking a hit when she got laminitis. Good that your farrier moved her toes back a bit - but there is still a long way to go. When the radiographs were taken, was Chicy standing squarely on her feet or was each foot pulled forward and placed on a block? Can't tell as the rads were shot from too close to the feet, which cut off parts of the foot, as well as parts of P1. That makes it a bit harder to interpret what is going on. I wouldn't recommend adding an additional frog support pad on top of the wedged Cloud pads as it looks like there is some slight bony column rotation on those rads. If that is the case, adding wedges will make that bony column rotation worse. There is definitely slight capsular rotation, which is when the hoof capsule pulls away from it's tight attachment to the coffin bone. She needs to have those toes pulled back even more, which will have the secondary effect of helping her HPA become better aligned. Moving her heels back under her is the goal, but it will be tricky to accomplish as there is NO excess vertical depth to work with at this time so they need to be encouraged to stand up, without losing what little height they have. Lying down and resting is a good thing, as it keeps her weight off her damaged and fragile feet. Masking pain in order to get her up and about is counter-productive: if you had broken both your feet, would your doctor be wanting you to spend a lot of time standing and moving around on them? Not likely as you'd just be causing more damage. If you can get more photos, I can do a set of mark-ups for you to help guide her trims. -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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I'm also having trouble deciding if there is any true rotation since it looks like there is overflexion, especially on the right. Definitely poor sole depth/ground clearance, long toes, underrun heels. The need for temporary wedging should be determined by the palmar angle, which is normal on the left and at least a couple degrees positive on the right. I would suggest you order boots to fit where her toe should be, not where it is, then cut out the toe to let the excess protrude until you get it off - like an open-toed sandal.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Sherry Morse
Hi Janet, Your CH folder is now in the main files where it should be: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy and I fixed that link in your signature. I'll let Lavinia comment more on the x-rays but I see long toes and possibly a bit of a ski tip on both coffin bones which says to me that the trim issues have been ongoing for quite a while.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Thank you for fixing the files. Will I need a way to update them to that address? Or can I update on line?
Thanks -- Janet and Chicy Chester SC 09/17/2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334
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The vet only put 1 foot on a block to take the ex ray. I asked about that and he said that is how he always does it. The vet told me her heels are so far forward she has all the weight on the sole just in front of the frog where the coffin bone is pressing on her sole. He also said she is so low on the back of her heel that the deep flexor tendon is being stressed. I have seen many with tears in the deep flexor tendon and they are difficult to recover from. That is why he made a V shaped pad. To get the weight more on her frog and ease the tension on the deep flexor tendon. Just wanted to explain that. Maybe you can comment on his logic. She has considerable more pain on her left front.
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She lays down a lot. Stands in deep shaving in stall. Boots are coming today. I am going to roll toe before putting them on if the fit. I want them on her hoping for comfort.
-- Janet and Chicy Chester SC 09/17/2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334
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