Lavinia mark up requested on sole pictures please


Qhgirl
 

Lavinia,
Vet and farrier will be here on Thursday morning.  I was hoping to complete trim before they come and need to schedule my neighbor to help me who works 2 jobs.  Been asking for markups but guess being new I do not know the formal way to ask. I am not asking for mark up of ex rays since she has had 3 trims since they were taken. Just mark up on the sole pictures.  And perhaps some indication of where I took off too much wall.   You say there is so little foot to work with.  I am now afraid I may have done too much Saturday as I removed a LOT.  The advise  people here were giving me is back up more than toes to white line so I did but left a tiny bit of wall to ask about before removing it. .  I removed wall all the way to the quarters.  And we did work on the quarters a little but stopped since they are so flared hoping for advise on how to safely proceed.  And I did not touch heels or sole.  So, if I took off too much on the sides this is why I kept asking over and over what I could take off.  Now i am concerned I have created a setback in her recovery which is critical.  I have no clue where she has too little foot to work with.  I do not know what that means. . So please tell me what areas where I  removed too much wall to too much of something else.  Members said look at marked up pictures of other members  and use them as a guide which is what I did and they all looked like all the wall needed to be removed from heel to heel. And what areas I should  leave alone or have removed to much and where there is too little foot and what that means. This is really what I was afraid off.  Now I am afraid to do anything more unless I have a visual on her sole pictures and an understanding of what I am doing  I can use as a guide and show to my vet and farrier as to why I did it..

Thank you but I am now very concerned I did too much when someone else said I had a long way to go to take too much.  I am extremely confused. I keep asking for the markup on the sole pictures but no one is saying they will do it.  I keep being directed back to you.  You have to understand with already having to fire my vet of 12 years for telling me fetus dead when it may be alive, giving her a utalyce injections that probably spiked her insulin and refusing to come to me 5 minutes away for ex rays and again for ultrasound  requiring me putting Chicy on trailer and standing her on concreate was cruel.  And now  had to get a new vet who does not know me and believe me I am lucky to get him since vets and farriers in this area are not taking on new clients so I do not want to be unprepared for his visit Thursday if I am to get him on board with this program and work together to get Chicy well.  I am not making any moves unless I myself feel I have what I need to do it right.   I am not going to be guessing if I am doing something needed or too much as it seems I already have.  If I do not understand I am better to not do anything. Chicy still standing and laying in 1 stall even though she has access to dirt  hallway and another deeply bedded stall.   I cannot even get her new therapy  boots on her. Her backed fetlocks are all stocked up from not moving around.   And, I do not know how I can work with her foot on the ground.  What is the technique to rasp when a foot is flat on the ground?  How can you even get the rasp on the outer wall at the bottom of the hoof?  Sorry for being so wordy.  
--
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Cindy Q
 

Hi Janet

When Chicy is laying down, you could work on her feet, including getting her therapy boots on or even making a duct tape boot for pads (overlap duct tape strips about 10 inches long into a duct tape square and placing a hoof pad in the centre) which may be faster to get on since you can then slap it on and just use your hands to press the excess tape up over the hoof walls? Generally find cloud pads or 12mm easycare pads (black or green) quite good due to having a certain amount of cushiness. Have you tried placing a rubber mat or garden kneeling foam pad or similar padding (even saddle pad/saddle liner/folded towels) under her feet before asking her to pick up one? Then the foot she has to stand on has some padding under it.

Also, when your horse is laying down, give a good brush or gently pick any dried or damp poo off. We don't want that to compromise the firmness of her sole or the quality of anything she has left on the bottom of her foot in the meantime.

I don't think you have taken off too much so don't panic. I believe but of course subject to Lavinia, that your horse does not have much sole depth under the tip of P3 (tip of the coffin bone). 

--
Cindy and Glow (over the rainbow bridge) - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Maxine McArthur
 
Edited

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Qhgirl wrote:
perhaps some indication of where I took off too much wall.
Hi Janet
As another owner who rasps between trims, I do not think you took off too much wall. Cindy has some good tips in her message. I will try to take a little video tonight of how I rasp when the horse's foot is on the ground. My old horse had very bad hock arthritis, and for the last year of his life, I only ever trimmed him from the top (that is, he could not hold his foot up for more than 30 seconds or so). You are just aiming to relieve the pressure of the outer hoof wall on the ground. 

For the stocked-up fetlocks, you can give them a gentle massage, effleurage (gentle but firm pressure with the flat of your hand) up the leg, while she is lying down if necessary. Sore No More liniment may help too. If her back, rump or neck muscles are tight, you can wring out a hot (enough to touch) towel and lay the towel on the sore areas for a few minutes. My mare likes it if I add a couple of drops of lavender oil to the towel water. This won't cure anything of course, but it may make her feel better, and that is important. 
 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Lorna Cane
 

Just to add to Cindy's helpful advice,I have found that putting something like a sheet or large towel under the foot being worked on is helpful.This keeps shavings out of your way,allows a good background for pictures(which you may need to be a contortionist to take,but it's doable),provides a clean place for tools/boots,materials to be easily accessible.
Another advantage to a sheet/towel is that if pony decides ,unexpectedly, to get up, it's possible to whip the sheet and things on it out of the way,whilst getting out of the way yourself.
One of those lamps you can wear on your head/cap can be really helpfyl,too.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Qhgirl
 

Lavenia,
I later awake all last night trying to figure out what I have done wrong on her feet. Should I remove more toe or is there enough there to bevel it at all. One member said I have not achieved anything that will make Chicy more comfortable. Desperate for feedback or I am going to look like a fool when I meet with vet and farrier Thursday am. I know you are busy. Tons of members need your help and reaching out. 
--
Janet and Chicy (in foal)
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

Thank you Maxine. You are the first person to tell me I have not taken too much. I am thinking I need to take a bit more off point of toe, do you agree? I look forward to your video. I think I figured out what Lavenia meant by standing her on shavings to trim. Foot will still have shavings under it. Makes sense. I am going to buy a cutting board to use or use the shavings trick. But I definitely need to know if I can take a bit more off toe and achieve the comfort she needs. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

Hi Cindy
Thank you for comments. Chicy has the Cloud EVO wedge pads taped to her feet. She has very thin stretched soles. I am the one who removed the wall Saturday. I  do not think toes are  rolled enough. Trying to find confirmation rasping just point of toes back will achieve the comfort angle discussed in the trim write up. Do not want to take too much. Need to know there is enough there and about how much more toe I can take back. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Maxine McArthur
 

Janet, have you checked the photos section on this group? There are some photos of trims including backing toe. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/photos

The other thing that may help you while you are waiting for Lavinia’s markups is to check out her comments to other members—most of them will show how to back up a long toe. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Qhgirl
 

Hi Maxine,
I have seen those pictures. I know the parts of the outer wall, inner wall waterline, white line sole. Those are great pictures but most of them have a lot of wall. What I read in the trim link is to go into or through the white line. That is a broad statement and looking at those pics most do not go near the white line. This is where my questions lie. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Janet,

I'm sorry if my comments have led to to some confusion.  I think you've done a good job at starting the toe shortening, and you have not taken off too much.  If you want to leave it at that and then maybe get new lateral rads done on Thursday after your farrier trims that may be helpful for Lavinia.

Keeping her barefoot with pads taped on is best so you can continue to work on her trim a little at a time, and I would resist any suggestions to put on shoes or anything that prevents regular rasping if that comes up on Thursday with your vet and farrier appointment.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Maxine McArthur
 

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 07:25 AM, Qhgirl wrote:
What I read in the trim link is to go into or through the white line. That is a broad statement and looking at those pics most do not go near the white line. This is where my questions lie. 
--
Does this help? This is a photo in Indy's album below.  CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Photo

You can see here where my trimmer has brought the toe back right up to the white line from 10 to 2 approx. The outer wall is not removed completely, but because of the angle of the bevel, the outer wall doesn't touch the ground. Over the four-week trim cycle that outer wall will grow down to the ground; or rather, it would grow down if I didn't maintain the bevel weekly. 

This is one of the photos in the 'tight white line' album in the Photos section. This shows a trim in progress, going right up to the white line and removing wall at the toe. main@ECIR.groups.io | Photo

Also, here is a quick video of me rasping toe on a hoof on the ground (standing on a mix of sand and gravel). It's messy because I had to hold the phone with one hand and rasp with the other--sorry for all the moving around. I find that if I start with the fine side of the rasp it's easier. Disclaimer: be careful under the horse, I suggest you have someone hold the horse's head, and wear head protection yourself. Use a good rasp, as Cass commented. The one in the video is a Heller Legend that has lasted me several months and will probably last another year at least with care. The hoof in the video was only trimmed last week so I just 'smoothed' it a bit. Don't expect to do a lot in one go. 

https://youtu.be/m0Rz4v_4BQU
(mute the sound because the rasp sounds really loud so close up!)

 As Kirsten commented, you could leave it for the moment until after the farrier trims on Thursday. You can always touch up between farrier trims, as many of us do.  
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Qhgirl
 

Thank you. I see what is happening to your horse. That one picture looks extreme. Looks more like something in a lab rather than on a live horse.  

I have been thinking I just need to back up toe more using your technique  I will do this and put her boots back on  

thank you for the video. It helps a lot. I am amazed your horse can stand on gravel. That is awesome. Mine is in barn with her having access to 2 different stalls bedded with now 10 bags shaving in each. She can want through the hallway and change stalls. She does this 1 time each day. They are end stalls and barn doors are open on top. Back door of stalls open on top. So she can see other horses, house and a large part of property. This way  I encourage her to move and that helps with stocked up rear legs. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

Hi Kirsten
Thank you for reaching out. Can you send me a link to the 4 week trim I keep hearing about?  That might help me. 

The vet trip tomorrow is for ultrasound to see if Chicy's baby is alive. My local vet said it is dead and possible still inside her. This is why I changed vets. And, it is to discuss how to trim her feet with my farrier snd get her feet cleaned up. 


New Ex rays will need to be at a later date. The ones in my photos are 2 weeks old taken by old vet. Chicy is going to be stressed enough with ultrasound and trim. I do not want to stress her anymore. I will have my new vet out just for ex rays in a couple of weeks. If that means Lavinia cannot give me more guidance without the ex rays then I will have to wait.   We are our horses advocates. I know stress elevates insulin from what is being said by group members. Chicy has a big enough day without standing her on blocks for ex rays. Will also require moving her to another barn for them where ground is level. My prayer is if I knew where I needed to take more off here feet I would get that done now so she will be more comfortable in a couple of weeks for the walk to the other barn and standing on blocks. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Qhgirl
 

Kirsten,
I never planned to put shoes on Chicy. The vet snd farrier are the ones advocating shoes. Snd my farrier does not believe in removing wall. Funny, they will rasp the periople  and thin walls but refuse to take wall from the bottom around the sole. He says horses walls support all the weight. And probably because they need walls to drive nails.  
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Janet,

I've added some mark-ups to Chicy's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334

Give yourself a huge pat on the back as there have been definite improvements in her trim since you started working on her feet. It looks like her sole depth is increasing - which is great!

Slow and steady is the best way to get her where she needs to be and your ability to work on her once to twice per week is perfect. That way, you make small, incremental changes that only help her without needing to make major changes that could make her more sore temporarily. Basically, you need to continue doing exactly what you've been doing, plus add a couple of tweaks to address the areas that haven't yet been addressed. The flared walls can be lowered to sole level and beveled to help keep them from breaking up. All heels can have rockers added to the backs of the heel buttresses while leaving the buttresses where they are now. Soles and frogs don't need any work done on them at this time - and maybe never again as long as she remains barefoot. HEre is some reading to help :

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/WallCracks.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Coronet.html

Before you have new radiographs done, have a read here for some tips on getting the most out of the money you are spending:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1571

I did mark-up the rads that are in her album to give you and idea of what you are looking to do - you've already made inroads into this.

LF dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the new, tighter growth coming in under the coronary band toward the ground. Blue is the wall flare that needs to be gradually removed so that the lower wall aligns with the trajectory of the new growth above. Take the walls down to sole level, then bevel them so they are under less stress. In a healthy foot, the walls are meant to carry 10-15% of the weight but as her laminar connections are damaged, the walls need to be removed from weight bearing until the well-attached growth reaches ground level.

LF lateral radiograph: Pink line follows the alignment of the bony column to the point on the ground where breakover should be. Note that this is beyond where her sole depth was at the time the rads were done, so red line means nothing comes off the sole/bars/frog until she gains more vertical height. Only the walls protruding below the sole need to be brought level with the sole. Green line follows the angle of the new growth coming in below the coronary band toward the ground. This is only a visual marker, NOT a trim line. Blue line is where the toe needs to be backed up, with the blue X the excess toe length that needs to be removed.

LF lateral: Green line is the same as on the rad. Blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad = toe that needs to be backed up. Orange line shows where her heels should be standing up- which is the goal over time.

LF sole: Solid blue line around the perimeter is the goal for pulling the toe back and bringing the flared walls inward. This line runs around the perimeter of the sole. Blue hashed area is all the flared wall/toe that will need to be systematically removed. Doing small amount regularly is the perfect way to achieve this. Once you back the toe, add a bevel to the bottom of the foot in the toe region so the breakover is brought back a bit more without removing more of the wall above it.  Lime lines indicate to add rockers to the backs of both heel buttresses while leaving the buttresses where they are.

RF dorsal: Same discussion as the LF.

RF lateral radiograph: Blue line is where to bring the toe back to, blue X is the excess toe material. Because of the way the foot was positioned for the view, it is distorting the way the bony column aligns when in a neutral stance so I only marked the toe backing.

RF lateral: Same discussion as the LF.

RF sole: Same discussion as the LF.

LH sole: Similar to the fronts. The hinds appear to be in  somewhat better shape - which is not unusual. Keep doing what you've been doing with them, just add bevels to the walls all around and under the toe.

RH sole: Follow the parameters for the other three.

From what you've said regarding the farrier, it doesn't sound like he is going to be helpful at this point. If this is the same person who has been trimming her, and based on the conversation you have already had with him, he doesn't sound willing to change his approach. If he trims her tomorrow, it will likely result in a trim that does more harm than good. If this was my horse, I would politely cancel the farrier for now, continue doing what you have been, then re-evaluate down the road. You can use the excuse (if needed) that you need to economize for now, so are prioritizing having the vet out for ultrasounds, etc.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Qhgirl
 

Hi Lavinia,
I cannot thank you enough. I am so relieved I did not do too much to Chicy's feet last week. She seems worse with pads taped on her feet. Her feet fit much better in her Clouds now so I put them back on yesterday.  She is very sore. Much worse than before. Has a difficult time letting me have a foot to put boots on. We work as a team making several tries snd her repositioning the foot she needs to stand on to get it done. So proud of my girl for helping me. She starts going backwards to the point I feel she is going to collapse her back end and fall backwards so I put the foot down when I see that happening. I bought a cutting board and will use that to put her foot on and trim her. I am hoping since she is back in her boots she will get stronger and I can continue on the path you have set up for us. She is stocking up on back end and stiff in all four legs.  Wish I could get her some relief  I massage them snd have asked Dr Kellon about using my portable micro current on her. She broke a big piece of bone off a rear sesamoid several years ago (horse kicked her) and I bought the micro current pfor that injury so have the leg wraps  

I have other horses that need to be trimmed or shod so will keep farrier around for now. I want my new vet to have a discussion with him about keeping toes snd heels backed up and no rasping of periople on front of foot that only thins out the walls on all my horses. 

We will carry on with the plan you have provided and get more rads once we achieve the desired shape of feet. 

The ultrasound tomorrow should hopefully answer our questions about the fetus. It would be a lot easier on me to have a farrier on board with our plan.  Will let you know how tomorrow goes.

Many thanks for your time and attention to helping us achieve success.

--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334