Considerations for possibly buying a second PPID horse


naomi.dechaine@...
 

Hi all,

I saw an add for a horse that 'might have Cushings' - a 21yr old Morgan with reported slow hair loss and did founder 2 summers ago, after which they have dry lotted him and report no further foundering issues but did not get a diagnosis. But sounds like PPID and would need proper diagnosis and investigations of IR as well by new owner of inclined for care. I am waiting for more information from the owner but this gelding sounds like exactly the kind of animal I would love to add to our herd, kids horse/temperament etc etc. and this fall animals are going for much reduced price.
In general, do those of you with more than one PPID horse/pony find any advantage? I have a couple mini's I keep with my current PPID mare when kept off pasture, so she's not alone but I was thinking if I am doing all the supplementation, medicating, having vet out to do bloodwork etc for one maybe doing it for two will not be that much more work. More cost, but some of it shared. I can see that there would be pros and cons, just wondering what advice there might be of the challenges of having 2 that I might not be thinking of, or maybe that would have been deal breakers in hindsight 'had you known.'  

Better to think of those things now than after I fall in love and start to think any and all sacrifice will be worth it ūü§†
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

You can figure out how much your baseline costs will go up. Also factor in a contingency amount just in case he does get laminitic at some point. What struck me the most though was the description of his temperament. He may very well truly be a kind, kid-proof horse but many PPID/subclinical laminitis horses have behavior changes in that they are much more active and lively after they are properly treated. Some horses are exactly the opposite, sour and aggressive when in pain, sweet and kind when treated. Just something to consider.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Tracy
 

I only have one PPID horse and he has a donkey for a friend (only two critters in my pasture).  Medicine is my #1 concern as a PPID horse owner.  I can't find a vet (have called around) that will use compounded pergolide.  Prascend for two horses is a deal breaker for me.  If your current vet will use pergolide you're lucky - is your vet young or about to retire - could you lose that pergolide script for some reason? 
I'm having to raise Salsa's Prascend right now - and I love him so that's just the deal.  But the price of this medicine is painful.  It's just insult to injury that pergolide exists and I just can't *bleeping* get it.
On just one pill per day it's almost as much as a year's supply of hay for the two of them.  Increasing the amount of medicine puts it as my #1 horse expense and it will only ever climb.

Prascend is the reason I would never, ever own more than one PPID horse at a time.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Sherry Morse
 

I agree with all the points Dr. Kellon made as far as the horse perhaps not being quite so perfect once he's feeling better. You also need to consider that the cost of Prascend will only go up with 2 horses and I'm not sure where you're thinking there will be cost savings for having the vet run bloodwork for 2 horses vs. 1.  The tests cost what they cost no matter how many you run and the cost for a blood draw is the same per horse unless you have a very generous vet who will charge you less for some reason but they still need to cover the cost of their supplies and time for doing the blood draw and processing for testing.




Maxine McArthur
 
Edited

I have two PPID horses. A couple of thoughts for you: 
1. If you are looking for a quiet, child-friendly mount, odds are that you'll buy a horse over 15, maybe over 18. So thinking about PPID is probably a good thing to do in any case. I tested Dangles when he was 18, results normal. A year later, he was above normal. You need to test proactively with older horses so you can prevent symptoms creeping up on you. So no savings on testing there. And no vet in my area gives discounts for more than one horse.
2. Agree with Dr Kellon and Sherry that a horse in poor physical condition, whether from PPID or not, should not be judged on their docile nature. When I bought my first horse, I knew he could be a bit of a handful, but I knew how much of a handful (he was in a riding school). At the time, there was a very sweet quiet mare who came up for sale--she was in poor condition due to a bad foaling and other issues. She was lovely to ride but I chose to buy the gelding. A year later, that mare was zooming around 1.4m jumping courses, a very fiery ride. 
3. I do find it an advantage in terms of management to have two horses with similar needs. I have been lucky enough to find a paddock buddy whose horse is also 21, retired, with PPID. They can all stay on the same restricted grazing/track/low s-s hay routine together. 
4. The medication is expensive. You have no way of knowing how much a certain horse will need to control the PPID. Dangles is older (21) than Indy (18), his initial ACTH test level was much higher than hers, but he is currently controlled on 0.75mg of Prascend in the seasonal rise, 0.5mg the rest of the year. She has been on pergolide longer, but needs 3.5mg of compounded, and I have just added 0.25mg of Prascend as I was not happy with her levels at the last test. Many horses in this group need more than 3.5mg. 
5. Morgans are often IR/EMS. You may need other medications (metformin, invocana) that are as expensive as pergolide. 
6. You mention that you have minis also. They are often EMS and/or PPID too, especially as they age. You may end up needing medication for them as well. 
7. After all those negative points, I have to say that although there are no perfect horses, I believe there are horses that are perfect for a certain person. If this gelding is perfect for you, maybe it's worth taking the chance. 

Hope this helps.



--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Starshine Ranch
 


--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara


Starshine Ranch
 

Hi Naomi,
How kind of you to even consider.  I have two PPID Morgan mares.  They are both on compounded Pergolide at 7.5 and 8 mgs.  One is also IR so I treat them both as if they were.  The IR horse is also prone to colic so I now free feed them both with expensive, tested low-sugar hay.  I have figured that between the hay, blood tests, the Pergolide and the trims that need to be done more often, it costs about $10,000/year for the two and I suspect that # will go up as the cost of everything else is now... and other issues could arise.  If you can afford it, then bless you for taking on a horse in need.
--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'll add to the above advice that if you are considering buying this horse, for your pre-purchase vet check I'd have the PPID bloodwork package at Guelph done (ACTH, insulin, glucose), ideally now at the peak of the rise.  And, at a minimum, lateral radiographs done on all 4 hooves to see the extent of damage caused by the founder.  There may have been ongoing subclinical laminitis and rotation for years before the acute founder occurred and the coffin bone could be quite degraded.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


naomi.dechaine@...
 

Thanks everyone for the feedback! 

The idea that temperament might change was especially helpful. The idea that bloodwork would be "cheaper" was only because I am already paying travel cost of vet and shipping cost which adds a lot to my cost of bloodwork (maybe I will still figure out sometime how to do these myself). 

I am lucky to have local access to an office of 5 vets who have been somewhat helpful, and willing to prescribe compounded pergolide. 

But the comment about me also having mini's is also valid, I actually have 4 ponies currently (one of them Butterscotch - the reason I am on this group) and a 15yr old Friesian who I believe is also an at risk breed for PPID, (also an Arab &TWH) so on top of everything else it's a good reminder maybe I should save my resources for the likelihood my current herd may have increased health needs beyond the ones I assume for them. 
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Naomi%20and%20Butterscotch
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264934


Deb Walker
 

Naomi - This might be off the wall...but my personal opinion is RUN. I would never knowingly purchase, take for free, or attempt to care for another PPID horse after going through this journey with Scotty. You can't make that choice when it's your beloved friend, but you can choose not to openly expose yourself to the unheard of rigors, expense, etc. I seriously doubt I will have any of my saved money for retirement left when all is said and done. Even if money were no object, the pain of watching your horse suffer and the uncountable hours of extra care make for a very stressful life.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Naomi,

While PPID isn't breed-specific, all of your equines have a high potential for being EMS.  At the very least that could mean increased hay costs one day (no pasture, tested low sugar hay can be more expensive and certainly more difficult to source), plus veterinary care and possibly medication for the EMS alone.  Plus, odds are if you keep all your horses into their senior years, you will have more than 1 PPID case to care for.

I feel bad for the Morgan and sad that his family won't/can't care for him in his senior years.  Maybe there is a rescue that might take the horse if they want to surrender him, and they might be able to find a home for him that understands his needs and can afford his care, if he does actually have PPID.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album