Hi Kirsten 

The abscess blew out on Saturday from the coronet band as you predicted! Thank you he’s moving much better! 

I’ve transferred him in the dry hay and arranged for his bloods to be taken… 

thank you 
Andrea 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Andrea,

To further reassure you, see this post by Dr. Kellon on how high WSC would have to be to be a problem:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/249146

You should see a nearly immediate effect on insulin when you switch from soaked to unsoaked or vs, but I personally wait at least a week after switching before I pull blood to test because their baseline insulin can continue to adapt after the initial diet change.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thank you Martha, I will keep with the ESC and starch figures.  Thanks for the assurance. 

I will reach out to Lavinia and get organised on the trim. 

Thank you, much appreciated, 
Andrea 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Andrea, I thought the WSC looked high as well but I looked at my last hay testing and saw that the WSC was three times that of ESC.  I don’t know if there’s any validity to looking at that relationship but yours is the same.

As Maxine mentioned, your hay analysis is pretty special.  I noticed that their explanation about why ESC is more important than WSC is right out of our playbook.  They describe the reason well if you want to review it.

If you want to have a hoof wizard look at his feet, post to Lavinia’s attention.  My still very novice opinion is that they would benefit from some trim adjustments to shorten the toes and add to the soles.  We see that need very frequently.  I also don’t see anything that suggests laminitis to me.  Note disclaimer above.
--

Thanks Martha for the reply. 

I did think the dry hay would be ok with the ESC and starch results. I have received quite strong feedback (elsewhere) the WSC is extremely high and very dangerous.  I know the ECIR advice is ESC and starch, is this still the case with my hay analysis as the high WSC? 

Embarr wasn’t diagnosed with foxglove toxicity.  I picked it up in the hay, it was absolutely full of it.  The farmer assured me it wasn’t anything to worry about….I took this on face value and kept feeding for another few weeks before researching the hay and discovering it was full of foxglove…. I immediately pulled it and as it was end of season we had to use untested hay and Haylage…: 

I don’t have anything on Embarr’s history.  When he arrived he was in the same set of shoes that he’d had when i was in Holland 4 weeks before and he was long toed and needing help then.  His heels were so contracted and the infection and thrush wasn’t great.  I could loose my baby finger into the central sulacus. 

I’ve just ordered him new scoot boots and he’s between a 4 regular and 5 slim, the pair he was fitted with after he arrived were a size 2!! That’s how contracted his feet were…. I did contact the dealer and agent in Holland to understand more about his history assuring I didn’t want to return him, I was trying to help him but this turned up nothing… I think he has history with his feet most definitely. 

thx
Andrea
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Andrea,
Yes, abscessing is often a follow up to laminitis.  And I don’t see any reason to taper between soaked and unsoaked hay as the ESC + starch of the dry hay was 8.5%.  That might be too high for some horses so just keep an eye out.  Interesting that the soaked hay is more difficult for him than the dry.
Was Embarr diagnosed with foxglove toxicity?  I wonder if that might have precipitated the laminitis?  I don’t think of most warmbloods as being predisposed to insulin resistance.
You mentioned that he seemed footsore from when you imported him.  Do you have any history from his previous ownership?
--

Hi Kirsten, 

Thank you for the reply. 

Yes he was on pasture but he also had a change of hay due to the batch being heavily loaded with foxglove.  We had to move him to an untested meadow hay and Haylage (this was tested).  Embarr had never had Haylage before that date…..

Yes it’s his right front hoof.  I did suspect an abscess as he was hoping on one leg.  He did have pulses in all four feet back in June time with the high insulin levels. Is it possible they experience abscesses after a IR/Lami episode?

if I try him on the dry hay is there a minimum time period I should run with before testing and do I break the rule of changing slowly from wet to dry with an instant change please? 

sorry for all the Q and I hope you’re right in the abscess front.

many thx,
andrea  

 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Andrea,

In June when Embarr's insulin was high, was he on pasture?  Or was he eating the Meadow hay?

I believe it's just his right front that is sore now?  That really sounds more like an abscess because with laminitis both fronts (actually, all 4 hooves, but the fronts seem to show it more) are affected, although one hoof can be more sore if it has more rotation or bone damage and the horse is laminitic.  Aside from the thin soles and a slight capsular rotation due to the trim leaving the toes a bit too long in both fronts, his right front rads do not show bony column rotation or significant bone damage.  I strongly suspect he is working on an abscess, but if you want to be certain it's not laminitis you should have insulin and glucose tested while he is eating his hay dry.  That, more than the hay analysis, will tell you what Embarr can and can't tolerate.

When you update your Case History, you can add some notes in the Comments at the end on which hoof is sore and what the timing is since these details are missing right now.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thanks Maxine, it took me a few days to pull it all together.  I hope it makes sense… 

I’m not sure if they still have the sample.  I will ask the Q…

I think he’s better from a metabolic perspective with soaked hay.  The fall out is he really suffers gut wise,
on dry hay he’s much more comfortable gut wise and his poo is less compact…. I really hoped the hay would be within the guidelines for dry serving… 

thx 
Andrea 

--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

 

Photos:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Thank you for getting all that information sorted, Andrea. It’s interesting to see the Forage Plus hay analysis—I wish we had reports that detailed here!

if they still have your sample, I wonder if running a nitrates test might be wise—but then, the protein is low so maybe nitrates aren’t worth considering. Hopefully one of our more experienced forage experts can chime in. 

In the meantime, if he’s better when the hay is soaked, I’d keep soaking.
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Thanks, Andrea!  I saw them come in not too long ago and your links are correct.  Thank you so much for getting them posted.
--

-- updated with the case history and photo  links 
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021
Embarr 

Case History: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Embarr

Photos: 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421

 

Hi Sherry have I done something wrong….I’ve uploaded his case history and bloods etc under Embarr- is it not showing? 
--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021

All 

please find Embarr’s case history, blood work and X-rays.  He’s struggled from he turned up in the UK 2016. 

We went down the ulcer and PSSM route and he’s progressed into a IR case and struggling with RF lameness. 

We have sources 10 acres to grow our own low sugar meadow hay and the attached analysis is the first crop.  On paper the ESC and starch looked good and we slowly transferred to dry and he’s lame again. 

I will upload his diet - any help and advice would be greatly appreciated as Embarr on a off day is sadly dangerous. 

Thanks in advance 
Andrea & Embarr 

--
Andrea Thomason 
Cheshire, UK
Joined 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=270421