From everything I have learned here, yucca is one the things our PPID/IR horses should not have. Yet most of the devil's claw supplements I find (even Uckele) have that as a major ingredient-listed first. (Devil's Claw Plus - Each 30 gm serving (2 scoops) of Devils Claw Plus provides 3000 mg yucca, 2500 mg Devils Claw, 1000 mg vitamin C, 500 mg grape seed extract, 500 mg boswellia, 500 mg pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), and a proprietary herbal blend of cats claw, turmeric, white willow, and feverfew. Feed 15-30 gm daily.

Dr. Kellon suggested a pure devil's claw product, but it comes from the UK and delivery date was anywhere from 4-8 weeks with shipping costs nearly as high as the product.

I would like to try a *SAFE* product for Scotty to use for muscle and joint stiffness in place of Equioxx which Dr. K strongly suggested. But the addition of Yucca and other ingredients has me very confused. If someone has some direct experience with this, please share what has worked for you and where you purchase it.  Thank you in advance.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Herbalcom.com has the pure powder.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

And you can find it on Amazon, too.
--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara

Deb,
I’m sure you’ve had a lot of replies by now but you can get DC just about anywhere. I order mine from Amazon (I’ll include the link) and Uckeles Phyto-quench pellets Do Not have yucca.
I’m a bind I’ve even gotten them from the store in capsules. If you do a search in messages I’m sure you’ll get a lot of hits.
Here is what I get and it lasts a very long time.

BulkSupplements.com Devil's Claw Extract Powder - Anti Inflammatory for Dogs - Daily Canine Care - Horse Supplies - Bone Health Supplement - Horse Supplements (250 Grams - 8.8 oz) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071F5B6W5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_JQ2M4CM0CPTH617K1DKY?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


--
Bobbie and Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Both "My Best Horse" and "Bulk Supplements" sell Devil's Claw that contains only Devil's Claw.    www(dot)mybesthorse(dot)com     www(dot)bulksupplements(dot)com
--
Barbara Rosensteel

Sept 2007, Cookeville TN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you to everyone for your replies. I was all set to order from the link Bobby sent me (had it in my cart and ready to pay) until it dawned on me this is powder. Would there be any reason I couldn't syringe it in with a little water or an unsweetened juice? Much easier if that is OK.

I checked out all of the other companies, and with prime mailing from Amazon it works out the best cost wise. BTW, I checked Mybesthorse first since I already order from there, and they do not list it on their website.

So...
1. OK to syringe powder with a liquid?
2. The label dosage on this is 1/3 tsp once or twice a day...Equals a Serving Size of 1,000 milligrams of the herb. Since this product can be taken by humans and animals...would that be the correct dosage for a horse Scotty's size (about 850-900 lbs.) which I would want to do just once a day. After reading all the reviews, I am also thinking I am going to start using it as well for my arthritis and back issues, and it seems like if that is the dosage I would take, that a horse would need more?

As always...grateful appreciation for guidance.

--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Ugghhh...I thought I posted this earlier this afternoon.

Anyway...another Question...

After getting the correct dosage, etc. above to my questions...what is my best way to start the Devil's Claw? Do I need to wean Scotty off of Equioxx before starting? Can I start the Devil's Claw immediately and remove Equioxx within a few days of titrating down?

--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

I had thought about syringing in Devil's Claw when my mare refused it in her feed but glad it did not as I have recently started syringing in Pascend and it is working very well. If I started syringing in DC I'm afraid she might start to object to this treatment and have to resort to other medthods for the Prascend. What kind of concentration of DC would be effective at 1/3 teaspoon? Generally a human dose is listed on the package for whole or extract and you would increase that dosage for a horse by 4 or 5 times. FYI I was having to feed 3 tablespoons of extract twice a day.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382

Dosing differences have nothing to do with being omnivores or herbivores. It's about metabolic body weight and any differences in how the species metabolizes the drug or herb. Published reports in horses have used doses as low as 2 g/day to as high as 40 g twice a day which attests to its safety.

Dosing in herbs is not as precise as mg/lb. With straight Devil's Claw I would start at 10 g/day or twice a day.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

You can use it while titrating.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Thank you for all of the clarifications. I'm going to go ahead and order the product from Amazon:

BulkSupplements.com Devil's Claw Extract Powder - Bone Health Supplement - Horse Supplements (500 Grams - 1.1 lbs)

Even though the description includes the words Horse Supplements...the pictures on the container show people. Please verify my translation of mg to grams...
According to the label 1/3 tsp = 1000 mg. (For humans they are saying 1/3 tsp once or twice a day)
Using conversion tables - I determined 2 tsp would equal 11.8 grams?
So a little less than 2 tsp would be the 10 grams per day that Dr. Kellon suggested to start?

I already shove the pergolide capsule down his throat (literally) so will probably syringe the Devil's Claw to make sure he gets the full dose.

--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

No, no Deb. 1000 mg. = 1 gram.
Therefore if 1/3 teaspoons = 1000 mg. (1 gram) it would take 1/3 teas. x 10 to equal 10 grams. That would be 3 Tablespoons + 1 teaspoon to get to 10 grams. (3 teaspoons = 1 Tablespoon)

--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382

--
Lori, Abel, Bodie & Dusty

2016

Redding, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie%20-%20Dusty

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6053&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 .

I give my arthritic mare one tablespoon of devils claw in the morning and one tablespoon in the evening.  I mix it up with her beet pulp and she has never refused it.  I buy it from Herbalcom.com and it costs $17.95 a pound.
--
Jean and Amber (over the bridge)

Nikki (EC) and Buster (IR)

South Carolina

August 2004

NRCPlus 0412; CIR 0813, 1211; NAT 0612

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gloria%20and%20Amber

Wait…
In reply to Frances C.’s dosing suggestion I think that is over by a factor of 3…?
If 1/3 teaspoons = 1000mg DC (with 1000mg being the same as 1g)
Then 1 teaspoon should = 3g DC, right?
So, if 3 teaspoons = 1 Tablespoon
Then 1 Tablespoon = 9g DC
Add to that another 1/3 teaspoon which equals 1g would provide the total dose of 10g. 
I believe other members simply give 1TBS for ease, but because of wide safety margin you could make it a heaping Tablespoon to get approximately 10g +/-.

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

 --
Claire S
Tualatin, OR
2020

Hello Claire
It seems that you actually joined in 2020 but this may be your first post so I will be sending you your official welcome message.
Regarding the DC calculations I do agree. I give 1/3 teas which is 1000 mg. One (full) teaspoon would be 3,000 mg or 3g. So, three teaspoons (or one tablespoon) would be 9g or 9000 mg. So, according to my calculations one Tablespoon and 1/3 teas for 10 g.
Now you're welcome message let us know if you have any questions or concerns. 

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

• low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
• low fat (4% or less) 
• mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. 

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--

Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie/Maggie%20and%20Bobbie%202021.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

So, obviously I am a bit confused too and beg all of you to forgive me. At 83 my brain is on the decline
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382