Stupid questions I am too embarrassed to ask or go against the status quo


Frances C
 

Drawing blood for insulin testing - why does temperature influence the reading of insulin? If the blood draw is performed outside on a chilly day can the actual procedure of drawing blood in syringe and then transferring into a tube make a difference? (eg the blood just getting colder) If the same procedure was done in a warm barn but with the same outside temps. would the result be any different? I am kind of assuming that the horse produces more insulin/glucose in an attempt to keep its body temp in its normal range and if that is the case then cold weather would raise glucose levels?
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Not stupid at all, Frances. The exact mechanism isn't known but it's likely a result of hormonal responses to cold stress. Dr. Fitzgerald, a researcher at Gluck, was the first to mention here that as temperatures dropped insulins got very erratic. We have since seen, as have others, that an insulin rise can result from cold weather.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Frances C
 


--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Cheryl Oickle
 

What would one say the threshold for cold weather is.
My vet is coming out next week and outside temps are ranging 4 to 10 degrees celsius.
Thanks

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cheryl,

We see fluctuations in insulin at temps below 50F/10C. Below 40F/4C is when you usually see winter laminitis flare ups.  You can still test in the 40s but you may see a slight elevation in the insulin number due to the temperature.




Cheri Tillman-Anderson
 

I'm so glad you started this post, Frances!  My somewhat embarrassed question is about deworming.

Despite the many, many  questions and answers posted about deworming, and the classes I have taken, I find myself still hesitant to give two, double-doses of pyrantel pamoate, spaced two weeks apart!  My horses are doing well on their balanced diets and appropriate trims, one is IR and the other arthritic.  Both in their 20's and each about 1100 lbs at the moment.  

Have I missed anything in the files and classes regarding the risk of dosing this way ... other than the regular can't-always-be-certain-of-anything?  I appreciate the reassurance!

--
Cheri
May 2020 New Mexico
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheri%20and%20Chama
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261805


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 09:50 AM, Cheri Tillman-Anderson wrote:
Despite the many, many  questions and answers posted about deworming, and the classes I have taken, I find myself still hesitant to give two, double-doses of pyrantel pamoate, spaced two weeks apart! 
Well, we didn't just make it up! Here is the original study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1789548/ and it is also FDA approved https://www.equisearch.com/HorseJournal/new-product-for-tapeworm-control .
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Chris Pennbo
 

I have an additional question about cold.  The vet is coming in 3 weeks for Monte's annual bloodwork panel.  We can only guess at what the temps will be then as the temps fluctuate wildly since it's spring.  We have dropped as low as -3F at night and gone as high as 60F in the day!  Our average is probably 20-30F night and 40-50F daily.  Will this affect his bloodwork? 
Thank you,
--
-Chris
May, 2019  Big Bear Lake, California
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Monte 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95892  


Cheri Tillman-Anderson
 

Right, got it.  Moments of uncertainty there ... thank you, Dr. Kellon!
--
Cheri
May 2020 New Mexico
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheri%20and%20Chama
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261805


Sherry Morse
 

If it's 40 - 50 when the vet draws the blood you may see a slight bump up but that's why we ask for the temperature and time of day to be reported when you update your case history.

As a 1 horse example - my gelding tested at 47.67 in June of 2019 when we were just running a baseline for him. I wasn't there but temps were probably in the 70s. In December of 2020 with temps in the 30s and not quite 4 hours after breaking his fast he was 45.77.  As he was being ridden 4 - 5 days a week at the time the test was run I wasn't that worried by the level.  

Hoping for better circumstances this year as I'd like to get another level on him.




Kandace Krause
 

The temperature range and resulting levels has always troubled me.  In my home area, we have above 10C most mornings only about four months of the year.  And not always, so making the appointments are tough to schedule.  If the horse has had his four hours of hay, is it okay that blodd draw is in afternoon?  And if not how do I know what's okay results when most of tests are below 10C?
Thanks
--
Kandace K
Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


Sherry Morse
 

As you want the test to be non-fasting for most people that would be an afternoon appointment. So if the temperature is over 10C at that point you shouldn't have to worry.



Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's important to realize here that the cold doesn't make the insulin inaccurate. It is simply another factor that may elevate it. Doesn't matter what's elevating it really; it's the number that matters. You then proceed to rule out the factors in your control and compensate for cold effects on the feet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

Thanks Dr. Kellon, for this 'simple' explanation !
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Jennifer Murphy
 

I had to go digging for this thread! 

I looked in the main files and see all kinds of advice for starting jiaogulan, but nothing about stopping it.  Should it be tapered down slowly, or can you just stop it immediately?  I think (knock wood) we're finally out of the sub zero temperatures for the winter. 

Additionally, I normally start the boys on spirulina before shedding season, so should I allow them a week or so between stopping the j-herb and starting that, or does it not matter? 
--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jennifer,

If you want to stop J-herb you don't need to taper it, just stop.  Many people use Spirulina and J-herb at the same time so no need to worry overlapping them.


 


Frances C
 

See thread on palatable copper and zinc. I have 3 horses, two of them PPID both coming 20 and both pintos, one is a sorrel and the other bay. I also have a black mustang coming 8. She is showing signs of a copper deficiency in that her coat is showing a coppery color in patches. This first showed up last summer. All the horses have basically the same diet and have been together for about 4 years. The black mustang and the bay pinto mare had a very deprived beginning as foals. I am assuming that the black pigmentation has a higher requirement of copper. Is this correct? 
How long does it take for a copper deficiency to show up by observation? Years?
How to determine if the two pintos are also suffering a copper deficiency by observation?
Do wild black mustangs mostly show signs of copper deficiency?
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Sorrel/chestnut, palomino, dun have primarily copper based pigments and bay/black requires both copper and zinc. Deficiency is a combination of intake and stored mineral so no set time. Hay analysis is the most accurate way to determine deficiency.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy C
 

Every year as we stumble along to bringing in new hay, getting it tested, getting tightly balanced minerals on board, my black EMS TWH gets funky coloring. It takes less that a month for this to happen.  Once he's back on tightly balanced minerals he reverts back to his wonderful black self. About the same amount of time. My PPID QH suffers intensely from reaction to bugs at the same time.  His ability to correct takes a season change.

I have tried extra Cu and Zn but not seen good results until the mineral balance is back in their systems.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



LJ Friedman
 

i suffered keeping ,my freisian black with custom supplements.. after i switched to ca trace plus..  voila.. all black.. cant say why and dont care now.. plus he eats all of this supplement where the customs were always left over..  
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos