I was alerted today to a post on the AAEP FB page blaming fructans and bacterial overgrowth for Spring laminitis. They also recommend feeding legumes (alfalfa, clover). l My response is there too https://tinyurl.com/2ws73t83

If you have a moment, please go there and "like" our answers or post yourself. Maybe we can raise some awareness.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

--
Shannon and Majik (IR) and Rafiq (PPID/IR, over the rainbow bridge)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

Majik's Photo Album

Rafiq's Photo Album

I just had this discussion a few weeks ago on a face book post from a local vet ..
after she removed my comment ( I was addressing the fructans and insulin response etc -- ) 

I private messaged her asking why ?

and she made it quite clear that she was aware of ECIR ( I did not mention ECIR at all , did not mention anyone or anything ) and that she was NOT going to put information on her page that has no scientific backing or peer reviewed information and confuse her clients . ( I was scratching head at this point )

she is a highly sought after practicing vet in the area but like the other 99% she is lacking in information on all things laminitis .. 
So unfortunate.. 
meanwhile we are meeting Friday with a desperate horse owner in the throes of laminitis who has been failed by her veterinarian/ farrier team here in the area --
and it's only the first of April .. 

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132

--
Marie Milliman
San Diego CA

Thank you for this.  I went one step further and contacted (messaged) friends I saw who liked the post.  Those that shared it received a comment with your link on their timeline.  One face palm moment after another 

--

Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History

Yes - they've taken the post down. It would probably have been more informative to leave it up with the comments but we'll take what we can get. Going after their web site content next. This issue with the fructan myth has gone on long enough. It's leading to harmful decisions.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi Julie and all

If you need some supporting evidence for um......disbelieving.... vets during your equinox visits, I can offer a few resources. My approach might be to suggest they actually look at the science behind what the ECIR Group does.

This is a printable tri-fold brochure with the science behind what ECIR recommends
https://www.ecirhorse.org/assets/documents/ECIR-Brochure.pdf

This is an excellent peer-reviewed article, accessible by anyone, that supports exactly what ECIR recommends
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023317302290?via%3Dihub

When corresponding with one of the author-vets above, and thanking them for their work, her comment back to me was "It has been a very long hard road to try and overturn a lot of misinformation and dogma about laminitis with research and outreach. I am grateful that there are like-minded people who have understood the importance of insulin over hind gut acidosis as well."

We had 40 vets at the last conference. They are eager for more information from the ECIR Group. They are out there.

Proceeding from the first four conferences are available on our web site, but for vets that need a more "veterinary" source, they are also on International Veterinary Information Service or IVIS.org.  Any vet worth her salt will recognize that source.

I'm getting old enough that my social filters are not as fine-tuned as they used to be, but I'd probably also offer them the fact that ECIR Group evidence is out there in the scientific community, and being picked up by other researchers for citing in their papers. https://www.openveterinaryjournal.com/OVJ-2019-04-078%20E.M.%20Kellon%20and%20K.M.%20Gustafson.pdf

Dr. Kathleen Gustafson has a great piece to be released soon as well.

And more to come....

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022

--
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR
Member since May 2017
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847

The irony of this is that the scientific evidence that pasture-induced laminitis is really insulin-induced laminitis doesn't come from the ECIR group. It's in the medical literature. One study (there are several showing sugar content of grass is higher than fructan) that resonated with me was that of Kagan in 2017 (already 5 years old):

Kagan et al., measured glucose, sucrose, and fructan in 3 cultivars grown in Kentucky (USA) and found that the majority of total soluble carbohydrate was comprised of simple sugars (Kagan, Lawrence et al. 2017). Fructan was one-sixth to one-third of the total soluble carbohydrate, leading to the author’s conclusion, “…more consideration should be given to mono- and disaccharides, particularly sucrose, than to fructan when managing grazing horses at risk for laminitis.”

Kagan, I. A., L. M. Lawrence, D. H. Seman, K. J. Prince, A. L. Fowler and S. R. Smith (2017). "Effects of sampling time, cultivar, and methodology on water- and ethanol-soluble carbohydrate profiles of three cool-season grasses in central Kentucky." Journal of Equine Veterinary Science.

 

Peer reviewed... yada, yada. What more can I say?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 08:47 PM, Helen Connor wrote:

Dr Kellon,

 

It may have been deleted already. I can't get through to comment. It says the content is not available now.

 

 

The same happened to me. It is not available anymore.

 

 

 

 

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

Tried but it says only a select person can see it. 

--
Brenda
September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy/Stormy%20and%20Brenda  .
Stormy Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263428 

 

 

Looks like the one they took down was a repost from 2 years ago.

https://www.facebook.com/page/128570532690/search/?q=Fructans 

--
Donna Browne and Penny
Scottsdale, AZ
Dec 2020
Feb 2000 - Yahoo

Penny Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Donna%20and%20Penny .
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258987 .

Thank you Nancy !!!

--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132

Kathleen , this is the message I got back from the vet -- I'm sure she is a good veterinarian, and she has a busy practice --and I try not to burn bridges -----

but I just get so flabbergasted at comments like this .. is it so hard to look beyond what you learned in vet school ?? 
sigh ... 
I absolutely get provoked by anyone who plays the " I have  a better education than you " card .. 
I also have  a degree .( D.E. Domestic engineeri) . it's just not as prestigious, but for pity's sake , I can read .. and 99% of university learning is reading .. and I didn't t have to sell my kidney for tuition ..

-- Hi Julie, our Facebook page allows us the opportunity to present the information we choose to present to our clients based on published veterinary research and a lot of years of school focused completely on equine medicine. Unfortunately, I do not find all of the ECIR suggestions to be valid for my patients. There is not published research that supports all of the ECIR recommendations. Since this is my business page and I am making the suggestions, I will not encourage horse owners to believe things that I don’t think are valid. That’s my opinion and it’s up to me to present the information that I wish to. It is not a forum to discuss ECIR and I will (and did) put a stop to presenting information lacking sufficient peer reviewed published research by a licensed veterinarian. I will not discuss this further. Have a great day.Julie 


Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie%20Allen%20and%20Callie%20and%20Cookie
Callie photo album:https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704
Cookie photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271132

Hi Julie

There are people who reject ECIR out-of-hand. They have no real idea of what is done here and why, that protocols are in fact supported by science (as Kathleen laid out so well), and they actually work.

I hope you can work with vet/owner relationship for the benefit of your animals.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022

Perhaps gift her a copy of the proceedings of the latest No Laminitis! Conference.    And ask her sweetly, "in the interests of keeping an open mind and learning all I can about the prevention and treatment of laminitis, I would be very grateful if you could refer me to the peer-reviewed literature on the subject that you have relied on in your practice".
--
Barbara Rosensteel

Sept 2007, Cookeville TN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They took the post down after all the negative feedback.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 02:47 PM, Nancy C wrote:

This is an excellent peer-reviewed article, accessible by anyone, that supports exactly what ECIR recommends
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023317302290?via%3Dihub

And if you look at the NO Laminitis Proceedings from the year before that article was published you will see we knew it first - it's hard not to get it right when you have over 20 years experience with thousands of cases. We're here for the horses and the facts. We don't make stuff up.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001