Sparkles ...WAS Photos Mark up, NOW frogs/bruising ... Dr Kellon, Lavinia ... anyone


J
 

"Need to allow the frogs to keep the calloused frog as protection for the waxy, immature frog below. Only trim off areas that are already loose or have dead flaps hanging, while leaving the rest of the frog intact."
 
I will be taking new set of photos on Sunday and do another mark up request. We will have apprentice coming. I feel thrush and front frogs getting better but hinds not as much. Right hind frog is pulling up from the point. She keeps getting flaps Apprentice is coming again on Sunday. Is there something she can do for this? Or should I leave this to our regular farrier? Should apprentice be trimming off any flap she finds?

Also, Sparkles has lived with us for five or so years. Since we had her she was always vulnerable to what I thought was mild thrush but definitely more frog shedding compared to other horses I have seen. She is stalled at night, but we keep our stalls clean and lots of fresh shavings and daytime environment clean as well. Our daytime area is usually a track. Our property is slightly sloped so we seldom deal with mud. For the past several months she has been in socks and boots most of the time with breaks to air things out. The wool socks get a little moist some of the time, but not terribly. In the past I'd use things like apple cider vinegar or Artimud. Now I am using Zinc Oxide/antifungal creme. 
Is there a reason she might be more vulnerable to thrush/ frequent frog shedding? 

"There is a lot of visible bruising growing out in the white line and parts of the sole - all those red/pink areas."
I feel like I am seeing more bruising in the rears the past few weeks looking at the hoof outer walls. Is this simply things growing out? OR ... is it from her over doing things? I think I mentioned, she tends to stand a lot. She has been doing this daily for a while. She still is not back on the main track with the herd so whenever our other pony comes back into the barn at night Sparkles often stands up waiting for her to come in. She will also stand up if I am not getting her breakfast fast enough. When she does this, she dances around a bit. I have wondered if this is simply too much wt bearing.
 
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Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Jen,

If the frog tip is detached, just snip it off. The frogs are elongated, meaning they run forward further than they should, and when the trim backs the toes appropriately the frogs will start to back up as well. When that happens, the tips tend to detach and dry up. If there are loose flap, just nip them off but don't trim everything around the flap to make it look pretty and neat. Because Sparkles has some sinking, her overall hoof capsule height is greater than it would be for a healthy foot. This means her frogs will also be longer and less likely to wear down as well as those on a healthy foot. When she sheds, you tend to see all of the shedding material come off at once rather than getting worn off regularly.

Again, deeper collateral grooves and central sulcus can provide a more hospitable environment for greeblies to take up residence. With the mechanics also not being optimal, she isn't using her feet properly either, all of which can predispose toward seeing things like thrush.

It looks to me like the bruising is old stuff that is growing out. As you tighten up the trim, you often find bruises buried in the areas that shouldn't be there. If there was a bruise near the top of the hoof capsule, it could take 6 months to a year to get to the ground where you can see it. They are more visible in white hooves but in dark colored ones, you don't generally see the damage until it hits ground level.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Jen,

I would also get a hay test and put her on minerals balanced to her hay.  That may help with the thrushy, shedding frog as depletion in trace minerals can contribute to this.

In looking at your Case History Feed and Supplements section to see if she's had her hay balanced, I noticed a few things.  It's not clear what weight/volume you are feeding as you just have numbers, no units, and for some items no numbers either.  Have you tried switching the Standlee products for something on our Safe Feeds list? 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds

With insulin over 200 I would also be soaking her hay to try and bring it down.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


J
 

Thank you Kirsten.

I soaked all winter. We tested our hay. Everything I was giving her from the time she was DXd with IR was around 8 or less (the lowest hay was 5 re ESC plus starch). She has been on Vermont Blend for quite a while. Her dose is based on instruction. 
She is on the rinsed and oaked Standlee Beet pulp no molasses. I think they are on the list. Are these not ok? 

For several months I was giving soaked hay (of hay that was already low sugar), beet pulp, on Metformin and Insulinwise, and Vermont blend. Her IR numbers did not change at all. The only thing that ever helped her be more comfortable (beside the occasional Banamine) was really bundling her up. She is now doing great ... but we get a colder day and she reverts back to at least looking uncomfortable.

We will be doing the stim test soon and I will request a recheck on IR. I am curious to see if numbers are lower since it is warmer.





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Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jen,

A couple of things - the photo you have of Sparkles where you said she was 275 looks like she's a good weight vs. the 380lbs you have listed for her in the CH.  Do you have a current picture of her and a current weight for her?  For her height I would expect her to be no more than 300 to a max 330 before she would be running to fat and less may be better, particularly since she's IR.

The reason Kirsten was asking about your CH is you have things listed like '2' for beet pulp.  Is that 2 cups?  2lbs? or something else?  The same for the Timothy and Teff pellets - 1 cup? 1lb?  Is she getting both of those? If her ideal weight is closer to 300 than 380 she shouldn't be eating more than 6lbs a day total to help maintain her weight and keep her insulin in check via diet (if that's possible).  If she's getting 6lbs of hay plus other concentrates that may be too much to expect her to maintain a good weight.




J
 

Hi Sherry.
If I said 275, that was a typo. It should have been 375lb (The picture of her in the stall Feb 2022 I measured).
She has always been right around 380 from the time I got her until now.   She looks the same I think but I will update all of her pictures within the next few days. To me, she has always been slender looking ... course that is compared to my stocky Morgan pony and quite stocky MFT. 

The last I measured her food, I had calculated 7.6 lbs total for hay plus other food. Because we had such a frigid winter and she shivered so easily, I was def doing closer to the 2lbs or more on the colder nights. I think I was doing 5 to 6lbs of hay 2lb beet pulp beet pulp and continue to do so. There were times I was giving the TC Safe Starch when she was refusing the beet pulp. I was also trying timothy and teff ... I was very worried as she went through a period of not eating much and it was so cold! I will get more accurate measurements.

For her height I would expect her to be no more than 300 to a max 330 
Can you please tell me more on why you expect this? In all of the charts I have looked for, including the Universities, I have never seem numbers that low. 

Thank you again for your help.
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Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jen,

My simple answer is that I've found that most people are not very good at estimating weights vs. heights (and I'm not saying I'm perfect - more on that in a second).  And we've all been trained to see horses that are perhaps carrying a bit more weight than they should as being a good weight when they're actually not.

For my one horse example my gelding was on the injured list from October 2018 - September 2019.  Because he was at the vet with a scale I took advantage of that to weigh him a few times to compare to what I was getting on my weight tape, which is how I came to discover the tape was pretty consistent with adding 20lbs to his actual weight.  At one point when I thought he was turning into a total porker due to being out of work he weighed in at the vet at 860lbs.  The next time we were there he'd been back in work for 3 months, was looking much trimmer and he weighed in at 890lbs.  I had not put a tape on him in a while and my guess before we put him on the scale was that he'd be down 25 - 30lbs NOT up 30lbs.  

Right now he's in work 5 - 6 days a week and I'd like to see maybe a bit more of a covering over his ribs but he's consistently at a 4.5 to 5 which is where we'd like to see most IR horses.

You might find this helpful too: Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io)




On Friday, April 29, 2022, 09:30:38 PM EDT, J via groups.io <jjb1812@...> wrote:


Hi Sherry.
If I said 275, that was a typo. It should have been 375lb (The picture of her in the stall Feb 2022 I measured).
She has always been right around 380 from the time I got her until now.   She looks the same I think but I will update all of her pictures within the next few days. To me, she has always been slender looking ... course that is compared to my stocky Morgan pony and quite stocky MFT. 

The last I measured her food, I had calculated 7.6 lbs total for hay plus other food. Because we had such a frigid winter and she shivered so easily, I was def doing closer to the 2lbs or more on the colder nights. I think I was doing 5 to 6lbs of hay 2lb beet pulp beet pulp and continue to do so. There were times I was giving the TC Safe Starch when she was refusing the beet pulp. I was also trying timothy and teff ... I was very worried as she went through a period of not eating much and it was so cold! I will get more accurate measurements.


For her height I would expect her to be no more than 300 to a max 330 

Can you please tell me more on why you expect this? In all of the charts I have looked for, including the Universities, I have never seem numbers that low. 

Thank you again for your help.
--

Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Could you please add that info about hay soaking to the Comments section of your Case history.  You could also include the ESC and starch numbers for the hay you are feeding in the Comments section of the CH.

I was talking about the Standlee timothy and teff pellets your case history says you are feeding.

Did whoever provided you with the amount of VT Blend to feed look at your hay test?  You could note that, too.

Saving volunteer time is one reason why we ask that Case Histories are up to date when you post questions on the group.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


J
 

Hi Kirsten.
Yes I will update everything and try to be more precise. I thought I put the hay results in the CS .

 Or did you mean another location? Sorry

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Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


J
 

Hi Sherry.
I agree re est of wt and so forth. I don’t like the tapes. If I had more money I’d invest in a proper scale. For now I use the usual tape as well as the formula. Interestingly last year when everyone got measured, I had two that were a bit over with the formula compared to tape and two a bit under. 

Thanks so much for the link to the body scores. One of the better ones I have seen. I have had questions about that too. 
Does the same body scoring scale apply to metabolics? Eventually I will start a case file on my metabolic Morgan. She has so many of the usual markers. Giant fat pad on the rump that never goes away …. Neck used to be quite cresty but better now. In her case I do have trouble understanding her body condition. You can clearly see her ribs ..
 yet on there are days she looks over wt… even with ribs showing.


Sorry if you already answered and I did not see or understand, but can you tell me why you expect Sparkles to be no more 300 max 330. … Is that what you would expect to see for actual wt of a 10.1 pony in general? I feel a lot of the charts out there are very general. Do you have links to better info on wt? 

when we weigh her again tomorrow, Iwill do the standard tape and the formula. 


thanks again.



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Jen and Sparkles in New England 2022
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
Sparkles Case History


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jen,

Yes, you use the same body scoring scale for metabolic horses. Just ignore the distinct, strategic fat pads when determining the overall BCS, as even thin horses can have them.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

The Case History.  It appears there is a lot of missing information.

Thanks! 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album