IR and n/p1 mare
eissagholian@...
Hello Group,
I am new to this group and would like help with putting together a proper diet for my IR n/p1 horse that has a history of laminitis. I have started her on the emergency diet today and will be mailing out my Equi-Analytical test tomorrow. I am currently boarding her at a boarding facility that feeds twice a day. They feed once at 5am and another at 3pm. I am able to have someone soak her hay bag and give it to her for her 3:00pm feeding but I'm not sure what to do about the 5am feeding. Am I able to soak her hay bag at night then empty the water and leave it for them to feed it to her at 5am? I need help with how to set up the soaking hay process as I work full-time. Also, my vet wants me to slowly transition her to Bermuda pellets within 7 days. However, I am a little worried that the pellets wont be enough for her. She is currently on three 6lb flakes of Timothy hay a day and she also gets a cup of Bermuda pellets, 1 scoop of Uckele magnesium, and 1/4 cup of chia seeds once in the evenings. Based on her blood and insulin test results, her vitamin E is extremely high as well as her insulin levels. Therefore, my vet wants me to act fast and change her diet ASAP. Further, due to an unrelated joint injury, she has been out of work since January. I have been hand walking her for 20-25 mins a day to slowly be able to bring her back to work. She is also scheduled to get her shoes put back on in a week based on x-rays with the presence of her vet and farrier. I would greatly appreciate help with putting together a good property diet for her as I am new to all of this. Thank you in advance for your help! -- Ani in CA 2022
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Ani,
We REALLY need a full history to know where all of this is coming from. Also, where was the n/p1 testing done? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ani, Welcome to the group! You can always soak hay and allow it to dry prior to feeding it. Many members soak the hay for the day at the same time so it can be fed out without needing to do multiple soaking periods each day. Information on the process we recommend to use soak hay can be found on our website (DDT +E – Diet | ECIR Group, Inc. (ecirhorse.org)). If you're soaking hay and getting it tested there's really no reason to transition to a pellet only diet, particularly if the pellets are not also guaranteed to be below 10% ESC+starch. If you need a hay substitute that is guaranteed to be under that limit we recommend Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes which are fed at a 3:4 ratio to hay and are balanced so you only need to feed salt, flax and vitamin E in addition to them. Any further diet advice would require a completed case history (you've already been sent information on how to complete one) but generally we recommend that most IR horses be fed a weighed amount of hay and any concentrates on a daily basis and everything they're fed be under 10% ESC+starch. The majority of the diet should be forage with just enough concentrates to get any needed supplements into the horse. Unless your trim is in order (no long toes, underrun heels and a good sole) we recommend keeping horses in boots so frequent trimming can be done. More information on that in the TRIM section below. With that being said, what follows is our rather long welcome message. You will probably have more questions after you finish reading it so get comfortable, take some notes and let us know if you have any questions on finishing your case history. The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Gymah
Just out of curiosity, I thought a horse with PSSM1 couldn’t also be IR? Or are there rare cases where a horse has both?
-- Helene A. in BC 2021 Photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271068 Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helene%20and%20Rosie
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eissagholian@...
Hello,
I have PSSM test results from UC Davis and Animal genetics. They both came back with n/p1. My mare got laminitis in September of 2018 in both front feet but right front had more rotation than the left. With the help of a vet and farrier we got her feeT onto the the right track and I took her off alfalfa and oat hay and switched her to Timothy hay only. From end of 2019 until January 8, 2022 I have not had any lameness issues with her. We were going on regular trail rides, shows, and even did cattle sorting. On January 8, 2022 while we were coming back from our trail ride, we were coming down hill and she got excited and sprained her left front. After we got back to the ranch she was off. I contacted the local vet had x-rays on he LF but he couldn't find her injury so he referred her out for an MRI. I contacted her original vet that helped us with her 2018 laminitis episode and he said to take her to a hospital and they will give a second opinion as he was home ill and could not see her at that time. I took her to the hospital beginning of February the vet did another set of xrays and nerve blocks and determined that she had inflammation in her left front coffin joint and said that she has had a traumatic injury. He said she will benefit from a Pro-Stride joint injection. They gave her the Pro-Stride injection a week after and she came home. When I brought her back home I was told to start walking her for 15-20mins a day. I started walking her two days after her joint injection but noticed that something was not right with her hind end as she did not want to move forward or she would hold her left hind leg up as if her muscles got stuck/tied up. I slowly continued to walk her and she would walk out of her hind end soreness/stiffness. Therefore, I thought it was her PSSM kicking in due to her not getting any exercise due to her coffin joint injury. During this time, after consulting with vets, we decided to remove her two front shoes and transition her to barefoot. I was using cloud boots to walk her every time I would take her out of her 12 x 24 well bedded stall. She seemed like she was slowly getting better until April 22, 2022 when her original vet and a new barefoot trimmer came out and x-rayed her front feet again before trimming. Vet said her front left had rotated much more compared to her 2018 rotation and the last x-xrays from 2020 when she was in full work and he had fixed her hooves/rotation. He also X-rayed her hind hooves and saw that she had rotated in her left hind but no rotation at all on her right hind. He suggested to put shoes back on her as soon as possible as her soles were thing and had been cut short by her old farrier. After they carefully trimmed her a little that day, she started walking like how she was walking when I first brought her back home from the hospital. She got very still in her hind end and now she does not want to put weight on her right hind. Vet also tested her insulin on April 22, 2022 and informed me on 04/27/2022 that her insulin levels are extremely high and that she needs to be transitioned to Bermuda pellets only from her timothy hay and he also instructed me to stop any and all supplements she was on. However, after a little research I did that evening, I decided to start soaking her timothy hay bag in water for 60 mins and then feed it to her. I am also still feeding her chia seeds, Uckele magnesium and a cup of Bermuda pellets. We have an appointment with the vet a farrier that our vet works with, to put shoes back on her on Friday May 6th. At this point, I do not know what I need to do and do not know how to put together a proper diet for her. I am extremely stressed and have not been able to sleep since January. I need urgent help as my mare had never shows signs of PSSM until being on stall rest. Also, the vet said that it is very interesting that she only rotated on the left front and left hind. PLEASE HELP I DON'T KNOW HOW TO HELP HER AT THIS POINT! I don't know if I should leave her in her stall or if I should force her to walk until she walks out of her hind end stiffness like before. I don't know if I should follow the PSSM diet or her IR/laminitis diet. I really need help and would like someone experienced to look over my hay test results and her blood work and let me know what they think I can do to help her. -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond
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Sherry Morse
Hi Ani, Great for getting your CH started, now here's what else we need: Diamond's current weight, Diamond's ideal weight, dates of PSSM and all metabolic testing, and actual results for those tests. When she had laminitis in 2018 were her insulin and glucose tested? Do you have copies of the x-rays taken at that time? Do you have copies of the current x-rays? If you have those please start a photo album and post those images there along with current trim pictures (directions on how to take those can be found in the Wiki: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help). Since she's a GV please wrap her legs before taking pictures so the coronary band is visible in all shots. Is there a reason you are wanting to put shoes back on her now instead of keeping her barefoot and booted? In terms of growing more sole Diamond would probably benefit from more frequent trims to get her toes back under her (this is a guess based on how we see many trims) that do not touch the sole and that's going to be difficult with shoes on. I know this is the exact opposite of what your vet has told you but putting shoes back on will not solve the problem, it's just putting a band aid on it. If she's not actively laminitic exercise is the best insulin buster there is so walking her (with her boots on of course) should not be an issue. Is she able to be out in a dry lot at all or are the only options the stall or walking? As far as diet, my understanding is that a typical PSSM and IR diet are similar in that both are focused on limited sugar and starch intake and are forage based. Our recommendation of less than 10% ESC+starch works for both PSSM and IR horses. For both diets it's recommended you test hay (we use Equi-Analytical 603 Trainer which is run via Wet Chem and is more accurate for ESC+Starch than NIR) and balance to those results. You can find a list of people who can help you balance your hay here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING-1.pdf If you need a vehicle for supplements rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is safe as is Stabul-1 (available through Chewy or through the Stabul-1 website) or Triple Crown Timothy Balanced Cubes. All hard feeds DO need to be considered as part of the 2% she's fed daily and if you opt for the Triple Crown cubes they're fed at a 3:4 ratio to hay as they're more calorie dense. If you have your hay and blood test results as PDF files you can add them to your case history folder and let us know they are there, or if they are JPGs you can create a photo album and post them there. Most of all - keep breathing. You're doing the best you can with the information you have at hand and we're here to help you figure out things going forward.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
On Saturday, April 30, 2022, 03:59:04 AM EDT, <eissagholian@...> wrote:
Hello, I have PSSM test results from UC Davis and Animal genetics. They both came back with n/p1. My mare got laminitis in September of 2018 in both front feet but right front had more rotation than the left. With the help of a vet and farrier we got her feeT onto the the right track and I took her off alfalfa and oat hay and switched her to Timothy hay only. From end of 2019 until January 8, 2022 I have not had any lameness issues with her. We were going on regular trail rides, shows, and even did cattle sorting. On January 8, 2022 while we were coming back from our trail ride, we were coming down hill and she got excited and sprained her left front. After we got back to the ranch she was off. I contacted the local vet had x-rays on he LF but he couldn't find her injury so he referred her out for an MRI. I contacted her original vet that helped us with her 2018 laminitis episode and he said to take her to a hospital and they will give a second opinion as he was home ill and could not see her at that time. I took her to the hospital beginning of February the vet did another set of xrays and nerve blocks and determined that she had inflammation in her left front coffin joint and said that she has had a traumatic injury. He said she will benefit from a Pro-Stride joint injection. They gave her the Pro-Stride injection a week after and she came home. When I brought her back home I was told to start walking her for 15-20mins a day. I started walking her two days after her joint injection but noticed that something was not right with her hind end as she did not want to move forward or she would hold her left hind leg up as if her muscles got stuck/tied up. I slowly continued to walk her and she would walk out of her hind end soreness/stiffness. Therefore, I thought it was her PSSM kicking in due to her not getting any exercise due to her coffin joint injury. During this time, after consulting with vets, we decided to remove her two front shoes and transition her to barefoot. I was using cloud boots to walk her every time I would take her out of her 12 x 24 well bedded stall. She seemed like she was slowly getting better until April 22, 2022 when her original vet and a new barefoot trimmer came out and x-rayed her front feet again before trimming. Vet said her front left had rotated much more compared to her 2018 rotation and the last x-xrays from 2020 when she was in full work and he had fixed her hooves/rotation. He also X-rayed her hind hooves and saw that she had rotated in her left hind but no rotation at all on her right hind. He suggested to put shoes back on her as soon as possible as her soles were thing and had been cut short by her old farrier. After they carefully trimmed her a little that day, she started walking like how she was walking when I first brought her back home from the hospital. She got very still in her hind end and now she does not want to put weight on her right hind. Vet also tested her insulin on April 22, 2022 and informed me on 04/27/2022 that her insulin levels are extremely high and that she needs to be transitioned to Bermuda pellets only from her timothy hay and he also instructed me to stop any and all supplements she was on. However, after a little research I did that evening, I decided to start soaking her timothy hay bag in water for 60 mins and then feed it to her. I am also still feeding her chia seeds, Uckele magnesium and a cup of Bermuda pellets. We have an appointment with the vet a farrier that our vet works with, to put shoes back on her on Friday May 6th. At this point, I do not know what I need to do and do not know how to put together a proper diet for her. I am extremely stressed and have not been able to sleep since January. I need urgent help as my mare had never shows signs of PSSM until being on stall rest. Also, the vet said that it is very interesting that she only rotated on the left front and left hind. PLEASE HELP I DON'T KNOW HOW TO HELP HER AT THIS POINT! I don't know if I should leave her in her stall or if I should force her to walk until she walks out of her hind end stiffness like before. I don't know if I should follow the PSSM diet or her IR/laminitis diet. I really need help and would like someone experienced to look over my hay test results and her blood work and let me know what they think I can do to help her. -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond
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Helene,
Horses that are symptomatic of PSSM are very insulin sensitive, not resistant, but it's not clear any of the signs she is showing are from PSSM. Heterozygous individuals (only one abnormal gene) don't necessarily show signs. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Ani,
When horses with high insulin and laminitis pain are confined to a stall they typically come out stiff because the circulation is poor. Holding that left hind up was likely because of pain from the laminitis. I would suggest getting her on LaminOx, 2 scoops https://uckele.com/laminox-3lbs.html . If you have never used your new customer discount, use coupon UHNWELCOME for 10% off and if you did use it use ECIR code for 5% off. Is she on any pain medications? Has she been tested for PPID? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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eissagholian@...
On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 09:59 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
PPIDDr. Kellon, I have not tested her for PPID, however, she has been six panel tested through UC Davis (GBED, HERDA, HYPP, HYHM, MH, PSS1) they were all N/A except PSSM1 which she was N/PSS1. I ordered LaminOx a couple days ago and I received it today. However, I am giving her Magnesium from UCKELE. Do I stop that and just give her LaminOX now? As far as pain medications, I was giving her Equioxx but I stopped giving that to her Monday and I started giving her 1 scoop of bute to her today. She seems like she is doing a little better now and I feel like it's because her soles have grown out more now. Also, since her last farrier cut her soles short, my current vet is recommending putting shoes back on her to get her soles off the ground until she grows fore foot. I have tested her blood, insulin, and cushings. Would you like me to upload them for you? Her RBC was 6.4 (low), LDH 584 (high), and her Vitamin E 14.44 (high). Everything else is normal. Also, vet said her insulin is above 200, which i'm not sure what the normal range is. -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond
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PPID and Cushings are the same thing. Can you put those lab values in her case history.
Stop the bute. You can't use that with LaminOx. Do you have boots and pads? That's better than shoes. Insulin over 200 is very high. Ask your vet to prescribe metformin 30 mg/kg twice a day and test her after 5 to 7 days to make sure it is working. You can continue the magnesium. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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eissagholian@...
I put cloud boots on her front feet when I take her out of her stall. Does LaminOx have bute in it as well? Also, since LaminOx seems like it has magnesium in it, do I have to continue supplementing her with additional magnesium or it's just an option?
Also, I will ask my vet to prescribe metformin. Thank you for your prompt responses and help. Do you by any chance know a farrier that specializes in corrective trimming for laminitis horses in or near Los Angeles California? Thank you, -- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond
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eissagholian@...
What are the artificial flavors in LaminOx?
-- Ani in CA 2022 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ani%20and%20Diamond
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I'll find out what the flavors are and post here. Once you get insulin, weight and trim under control you can stop it.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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There is no bute in LaminOX and the magnesium silicate is a flow agent, not bioavailable. Look for a trimmer here https://progressivehoofcare.org/directory/ .
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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