locked My vet let me go as a client


maed@...
 


Well - I finally got a hold of the Vet.  I talked to her about the high Iron and the therapeutic Phlebotomy and she said that she wouldn’t do it. And I’m like Ok - it’s her right.  And then she went on to say that our views were just too different and said that I needed to change to another Vet.  

It’s just frustrating-  I feel that I’m being punished for having a sick horse and not following some kind of societal norms.    

 
Mary E in Wi 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Eli/


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Mary,

You will see, if you haven't already, we try our best to steer away from making recommendations based on views/belief/opinion and look to the science for answers. The connection between iron and insulin resistance is firmly established in people and a host of other animals from mynah birds to rhinos to dolphins. We have also documented it in the horse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6971364/

Phlebotomy, aka blood-letting sounds positively medieval but is used in the species above, was a former treatment for laminitis, and here is the account of a recent case in France https://www.westovervets.co.uk/confusion-treatment-laminitis-france/ . Since it was a pony, I'd bet the farm it was also an EMS case but that wasn't investigated.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


maed@...
 

I know that you’re a careful person and you always want to investigate things and that you understand and that’s why I trust you.  

And I with the blood letting I told her that they do it in people all the time.  And that people want the same standards of care in horses as that of people.  She said that she didn’t want to do it.  And I said Ok that I understood.  It’s not like I’m somehow going to try to force her to do anything that she wasn’t comfortable with.  And she said that there was no evidence that high Iron caused problems in horses. I didn’t think that I was being rude at all - but I did ask some questions.

It’s almost like she had been told this exact formula of how things were done and she didn’t want to deviate it by 1 mm.  And I wasn’t following the formula.  

And I guess I’m feeling just kinda hurt. I feel like I’ve kind of been kicked when I’m down.  I’ve had Vets who disagreed with whatever idea that I had, but I’ve never had one say that our ideas were just too different and told me that they wanted me to leave.  It just seems really pretty extreme.  

 



--
Mary E in Wi 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Eli/


celestinefarm
 

Mary, 
You will look back on this episode eventually and realize that this vet opened the door for you to get another vet that doesn't hold 180 degree views on how to diagnose and treat IR horses. 
Vets today have more clients than they know how to manage and they have no issues with sending you off to another vet if they feel they are going to have to argue their own opinion to a client consistently. 
In every profession, there are those individuals who are comfortable with whatever they learned in school, including the stuff they never learned thoroughly in the first place. They have a belief system that was firmly implanted in school and once out, they don't want to discard any of it because it requires them to personally admit that what they knew was wrong. What treatment they did was wrong for a condition. It's not their fault, as the knowledge was what was known at the time. But it takes a certain type of flexible mindset to accept new knowledge based on accurate acceptable studies, research etc. and there are professionals who cannot do that.  This one sounds like she is afflicted with that kind of inflexibility.

Caring for metabolically involved horses takes a lot of interest in details. It can be stressful when you own one that either isn't responding well or has multiple issues, or doesn't like the different feed, hay etc. Adding a resistant, knowledge blocked vet to the equation that you have to depend on for testing, advice, and Rx is a path to frustration and stress you don't need. Don't feel like you somehow failed your vet, your vet failed you and your horse and your first responsibility is to your horse. Network to find a new vet that is more accepting of your input and move on.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Qhgirl
 

Hi Mary,
Since my Chicy foundered I had a vet refuse to come back when I inquired about a particular medication she prescribed possibly having an undesirable affect on my PPID pregnant mare. She told me she would not be coming back and to find another vet and acted like I was challenging her. I have found I have to be very careful what I say about medication affects on my mare. I do it now by asking questions rather than talk about the ECIR group who helped me save my girl.  I am in a rural area without a lot of equine vets. They follow their training and often are not open to new ideas suggested by their customer. Farriers are the same way. So you are not alone. You need to do what is best for you snd your horse. You will find another vet. 

I do not understand the attitude either. I guess they are working hard, seeing lots of customers and anything that could be new or different and slow them down will not be acceptable. I do know there is a shortage of equine vets in my area. I use 2 vets now. A local country vet for routine things and emergencies. And an equine vet for other special issues. Hope this helps. Chin up. You did not do anything wrong. You want to help your horse feel better. That's a good thing. 
--
Janet and Chicy
Chester SC
09/17/2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Janet%20and%20Chicy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=268334


 

I'm so sorry, Mary. FWIW I went through seven vets until I found one that would treat my IR/PPID horses with appropriate meds. So I know what you're going through.

Phlebotomy is probably a step too far at a boarding facility where I can see the eye rolls from other boarders with demands that it stop. Managing these horses can be a hard process and requires the will of a titan. I do think that aggressive trace mineral balancing will make a difference over time for an iron overloaded horse. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


maed@...
 

Thank you guys for your encouragement- I appreciate it!  


It just seems like I’m going through so much already and then the Vet who’s supposed to be helping me through all of this - tells me that they’re releasing me as a client.  

 
I had only seen her once though.  At that time she came out and she didn’t seem all that helpful.  But there were a couple of things that made me think maybe?  She did come out and take x-rays and talked about the trim and took labs.  And for all of that I was grateful.  But today on the phone it sounded like she had her own specific protocol and there was no possibility of doing anything outside of that. From what I understood the protocol consists of doing a trim and putting shoes on and then putting the horses on Insulinwize or Heiro.  That’s it. And then the horse is supposed to be cured at 100%.  No problems ever again.  


I also had a really hard time reaching anyone at the office.  You had to leave a message and getting a return phone call could take days.  

 I guess that it is an opportunity to find someone that I feel is more helpful.  And if nothing else - hopefully it will be somewhere where I can just call on the phone and talk directly to a person and not have to leave a message.  And not to have to wait to hear back.  It’s just the worst not being able to get ahold of anyone on the phone for days.  



--
Mary E in Wi 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Eli/


Tracy
 

I am in a profession - like MDs and vets - that "practices".
There is a reason some professions are practiced and that is because they are always evolving and can not be mastered - at least not in their entirety.

One time a human doctor told me that I knew more about a lab test than she did!  And she was not being condescending - she meant it. But instead of 'hey - let me check into that' she was like "meh".
Fired.  That was the last time I was in that office.  I cannot know more than my doctor.
Now if the doc/vet is game to check into something and call me - that's good.  I appreciate that and they may learn something in the process.  That's a win-win.

I see a functional PA for my own issues and to focus on wellness.
This group reminds me of functional human docs - diet, exercise and lifestyle matter and our metabolic horses are the perfect illustration of that.  But the functional stuff is 'work'.  And it's a lot to stay on top of.
The "D" in MD and DVM stands for doctor, not deity.
It should also stand for 'Dedicated life-long learner' too.

Sorry for the experience Mary - but I bet you'll wind up with a better vet in the long run.
The healing professions are no place for ones that are married to what they learned in school as if it cannot be questioned - that's downright dangerous.

Tracy

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Nancy C
 

Hi Mary

Just want you to know we've pretty much all been there. I've been fired, and I have fired better than a half-dozen times.  I now have three vets that I use for various areas of equine care. They all know what I want to do and why.  The good news is that the profession has come around in the last twenty+ years. Not where we need to be yet, as evidenced by how many people come here for help, but it is better.

Take a deep breath. You'll begin to discover more so that you can find the right professional for your situation.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Bobbie Day
 

Mary
Hopefully this will be a blessing in disguise. I really want to commend you though on sticking to your guns. Sadly most of us have been in your shoes. It shouldn’t happen when these protocols are backed by science. I hope you find someone at least willing to listen, it’s hard enough to navigate all this without a willing vet.
I do wish you luck, keep your chin up.
Bobbie


--
Bobbie and Maggie
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21)
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


millionairess1989
 

Mary,

I'm very sorry to say that this situation isn't limited just to vets.

I had the same problem with a human doctor I saw once. By asking questions of her nurse I was considered "rude" and fired as well. It must be the go-to response if any effort will be involved.

Apparently there are those in the medical fields-animal or human-that can't accept owners or patients taking an active roll in their care. Just because they are a vet or doctor doesn't mean they know everything. And no one cares more about what's going on than the people and animals that it affects.

I've worked in an 8 vet mixed animal practice for over 20 years. Some of the vets are willing to follow the ECIR recommendations that I've shared and one I've never been able to convince to test for insulin and glucose in laminitis cases. in our case the younger vets who don't do equine work all the time are more open minded, compared to the older, large animal only vet. 

Hopefully you'll be able to find another vet more willing to work with you. Continue educating yourself and never stop being your horse's advocate.

--
Jennifer in Middle TN  2010
 Mill 32 yrs Arabian-PPID, IR & Pacemaker Dependent
Jack 22 yrs TN Walker- IR & RAO

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=831

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Jack-TN%20Walker


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Tracy you nailed it when you said the "D" in MD and DVM stands for doctor not deity.  Continuing education is a requirement of renewing one's professional license for a reason i.e. to stay current so you can provide what's called "best practice".   I think unhelpful attitudes and behaviors of some MD's/DVM's comes down to ego and their reason for becoming a doctor.  Insecure, unhappy people make terrible professionals of any kind and are best avoided if one can help it.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo


a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Just want to say, remember you are a good person and there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to do what's best for your horse.  I don't think some of these vets realize that ECIR is a science/researched based group and Dr. Kellon is our Dr. Fauci for EMS/PPID.  There's that old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  I know it's easier said than done but don't waste your time and energy on someone who isn't going to help.  Always be kind but stand your ground.  Since our horses can't speak up for themselves, we have to be their advocates.  We decide how they live and even if they live.  It's a lot of responsibility to carry around.

I'm new to ECIR and surprised to see how pervasive this problem is. I didn't get fired by my vet but I couldn't even get a response to my request to do x-rays on a lame horse she had seen for years so I called another clinic and new vet came 3 hours after I called and it wasn't an emergency request. Definitely wish I had done it sooner.  It hasn't been all smooth sailing with new vet either since he's so very busy.  Unfortunately, there are not enough vets to meet the current demand and many large animal clinics can't find even new grads to hire because they don't want to work the long hours and be on-call nights and weekends. Clinic new vet works for actually sent out a letter to inform clients of this situation and asked that we all try to handle as much as we could on our own.  I've always been doing it that way anyway.

I got fired by a farrier. He didn't like me asking questions about treatment options for Apollo and resisted following ECIR trim frequency guidelines.  My "offense" was sending hoof pictures to owner of happyhoofpads (who also is a hoof trimmer) so she could help me choose most appropriate hoof pads. After reviewing photos, she sent a text with suggestions for trimming Apollo.  We forwarded this text to farrier and asked if any of these suggestions might be useful (exactly how we worded it) and his response was we should find someone else to trim Apollo. This was 3 days before Apollo's next trim and he had been trimming Apollo for last 8 years. Fortunately, I was able to find another farrier in time for Apollo's next trim after explaining what had happened. I still don't know why this guy said yes but I think having a vet he worked with helped.  Found out later from someone else that our previous farrier had a reputation for this kind of behavior.  New farrier came to see Apollo at 6 PM the night of a horse club meeting and still only charged his usual fee (I had offered to pay him extra since it was short notice).  

Maybe I was unusually lucky but I like to think there are more good people out there. 




--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo


Frances C
 

Dang! been a bad week or so in these messages, I'd like to add we can blame a lot of it on Covid. Urban/suburban horse people moving to rural. Vets are overwhelmed as it is not so easy for them to move. Small animal vets now charging city rates in rural areas, rural folks outraged. So what is going on with the poor people who are trying to raise cattle? Or for that matter human moms looking for formula? Female vets have a high rate of suicide so please be kind to them, treasure them and get them excited to be on your side. If they say "I dont know" that is actually a good response. Or thinking outside the box, taking a chance like "this will either be a cure or a kill" , going off label. They have high insurance rates and rascals are always looking for ways to sue them. Lawyers are part of the blame. But wait, there is more bad news - 2022 hay prices. Hah! now I feel better.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


maed@...
 
Edited

Thank you all for your kind words and understanding!    And it sounds like a lot of you guys have been through this too.  

I think that part of the problem was that I didn’t talk to the Vet directly before I made the appointment.  I would’ve gotten a lot more information that way.  I did talk to the office staff, who were super nice, and I asked them if they treated a lot of metabolic and laminitic horses.  And they said that they yes. And the wording on their website sounded so nice.  And I guess that I was just feeling kind of desperate at that moment.  And I don’t have a horse trailer so it’s a little harder to get places.  

Oh well - it’s like live and learn I guess.  



--
Mary E in Wi 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Eli/


Annette
 

Mary, 

You are not alone. This week, I changed vets after I received a text saying, "Maybe another veterinarian is a better fit for you," because I declined suggestions that I did not consider were appropriate, based on the science. And at a time of crisis when I needed someone working with me.  

I decided she was right, she was not a good fit! This time, I asked up front if the new vet would be alright with me going to science-based information on the web and asking questions before going ahead with treatment, and she responded that would be fine - she was always learning. I am hopeful we will get on well.

My philosophy is that whether it is with doctors, teachers or veterinarians, we have to be our own advocates, for ourselves, our kids and our pets. With the always increasing body of scientific knowledge, no professional can be expected to know it all about every specialized subject, and no one knows our own situation and the problems we are dealing with better than we do - and they are not the ones most impacted when things go wrong. This is was a tough concept for me to get my head around, since I grew up in an era where professionals were always considered right and not to be questioned - I learned the hard way, that was not the case. 

I'm sorry you had to go through this, but if you find a more cooperative vet, it may be the best thing that could have happened. You did the right thing - you were looking out for your horse.
--
Annette and Alley
October 2018, Moscow, Idaho
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Annette%20and%20Alley 
Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78421  .


maed@...
 

Annette,

So sorry about that - it’s so frustrating when you just want and need help. 

And this Vet just seemed to want to work on the hooves.  It was like she just didn’t seem too interested in what else was going on with the rest of the body.  

--
Mary E in Wi 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Eli/


 

Most of us have experience working with one or another professional who, it turned out, wasn't right for us. There are fine veterinarians who work with our metabolic horses and help save lives every day -- enough that each of us should be able to find one. 

I'm going to lock this topic. Please know that's not a slap at anyone who posted her experience - how can I, when at least two of us moderators  replied.  Moving on from this subject, though, lets us focus on pressing questions from members who need help now. ECIR's hard-working volunteers try to address every question to be best of our ability.

ECIR has extensive resources that answer many questions. Use the Message search feature to look for answers to common questions. Search Files. Search the Wiki. Search ECIRHorse.org.  As always, on-topic posts that can inform all members are always appreciated. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos