question on testing


Erin Isaachsen
 

I have a mare that is borderline PPID and definitely IR per tests in January.  I am going to get her tested again in a few weeks and I wonder about testing for leptin and thyroid levels.  Is it worth it to get those test and what can they tell me?  
Thanks.
Erin
--
- Erin

June 2022, Aldie, VA

Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847


Sherry Morse
 




Nancy C
 

Hi Erin

RE: Leptin testing, this is from our website ecirhorse.org: "The fat-derived hormone, leptin, is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance. There are many other things that can lower or increase leptin — age, weight, sudden changes in nutrient requirements such as foaling, starting an exercise program, differences between breeds. ECIR does not recommend routine testing for this hormone."

RE: Thyroid testing, while nice to have, the ACTH and insulin/glucose are the main tests recommended by ECIR. (see website above and Sherry's welcome post to you.) Many members have found sluggish thyroid results initially that become more healthy when weight loss and diet recommendations are instituted.  Adequate iodine and selenium are important for thyroid.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022



Erin Isaachsen
 

Hi Sherry & Nancy--
Thanks for replying so quickly!  Answering/commenting on a few things that Sherry wrote:

I'm guessing your entry for her current weight was meant to be today.  If that's correct she's at least 30lbs overweight based on what you have listed as her ideal weight but a 7 is usually about 100lbs heavier than the 4.5 - 5 BCS we recommend for an IR horse.  So getting her diet addressed would be the first place you should start.  For an overweight horse we recommend 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal - whichever is greater - to help them lose weight.  For a horse that should be 975lbs 2% is 19.5lbs and 1.5% of the 1115 would be 16.725.  
The current weight of 1115 is from a few days ago; I just checked it again today and it is more like 1122.  I assume you mean at least 130 lbs overweight, not 30?

Looking back in my records from the summer of 2020 when she was actually weighed on a scale at a vet hospital (had endoscopies to diagnose ulcers & monitor ulcer treatment), I have her ideal weight wrong.  I bought her in March 2020 and she was very slim and fit from being used as a field hunter, I'd say BCS 4.5 (high side of Moderately Thin); here is a picture.  I opened my pastures in May, 2020, so she was on grass starting then and started to gain some weight and was at BCS 5 (Moderate).   June 24 she weighed 1090 lbs.  July 24--1066 lbs.  August 20--1080 lbs.   So perhaps her ideal weight is actually more like 1050 lbs?   This is a picture of her from today.  Weight tape measurement 1122 lbs.  How closely does weight tape measurement compare to actual weight?  Is it usually high or low?  If the weight tape measurement is at all accurate, she need to lose 72 lbs, which is more in line with my BCS of 7.

So that would put her ration at the higher of 0.015 x 1122 = 16.8 lbs & 0.02 x 1050 = 21 lbs, so 21 lbs.

Looking at the case history are you weighing her hay or is the 20lbs a day an estimate?  
I am estimating it right now, but I do have a scale I will be putting up so I can actually weigh the hay.  Darla lives with two larger minis (37" & 38" height at withers) on a dirt track--I am estimating their ideal weights are about 300 each.  One has PPID and is medicated and his body score looks ok.  The other has not been tested for anything, BCS 6 I'd say.  I feed them all in slow feed nets on the track, so I assume if they all eat steadily (and they do) that everyone will get the correct amount.  Not sure how else to manage things!  I want them to be out walking (they keep each other moving) and slowly but constantly eating (to ward off ulcers and maintain healthy digestion), so I do not want to isolate them from each other.

--
- Erin
June 2022, Aldie, VA done the first summer I had Darla--she was 

Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847


Erin Isaachsen
 

I just found the weight calculator Excel spreadsheet...it calculates 1284 lbs (Length 186 cm, Girth 193 cm).  Ok, so now I am frightened. :-(
--
- Erin

June 2022, Aldie, VA

Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Erin,

In your 2019 picture Darla appears to be a 5 to me.  Based on that vs. the picture from today I'd say your estimate of her BCS and amount she needs to lose at a minimum are probably correct. For my horse the weight tape adds 20lbs vs. scale weight but that's him, I can't say if that's true of every horse. With that information on her weight, by the numbers you're correct and she shouldn't be eating more than 21lbs a day. You may need to tweak that if she doesn't lose weight on that amount but that's where you should start.

As far as the feeding situation you may need to rethink how you are doing that. That may mean dividing the track up so the ponies are in one section and Darla is in another so she can't eat more than what she should be eating.  As she's bigger than the ponies, there's a good chance she's eating more than her share of the hay that's put out for them. 



Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

slowly but constantly eating (to ward off ulcers and maintain healthy digestion)
This myth about ulcers and needing access to constant forage is totally overblown.  For horses with EMS, they are resistant to leptin, which is the hormone that tells them to stop eating because they are full.  Leptin gets higher in the blood but the brain doesn't register it, so they keep eating.  Ulcers can occur when horses are alternately fed and fasted for extreme periods (>24hrs), but they also occur in high proportions in horses on full time pasture.  Dr Kellon has referenced the research on this previously.  Perhaps she can add to this discussion with links to those papers again, and correct me if I'm wrong in any of this...

Controlling diet is unfortunately a necessary part of caring for horses with EMS as they truly cannot, and never will be able to, restrict themselves.  Meals can be up to 4-6 hrs apart without adverse effects on insulin.

This article touches a bit on the myth of 24/7 feeding for horses with EMS, although it is not about ulcers:
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/you-cant-always-follow-your-gut-with-an-ir-horse/
At the end in the Comments section, Dr Kellon addresses a question about ulcers:

First, I want to make it clear I was not advocating fasting – just showing it does not lead to a rise in cortisol.

It takes a minimum of 4 to 6 hours for a meal to completely exit the stomach and small intestine, 2 hours of which is time spent in the stomach but this is also highly variable and even horses not fed for 12 hours are often found to have residual food in their stomachs when examined with an endoscope. I can tell you that researchers attempting to induce ulcers by fasting have found that it takes 4 days of alternating periods of 24 hours fast, 24 hours fed to reliably result in ulcer formation.



--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kirsten is correct, and the most recent model for inducing ulcers experimentally has added phenylbutazone to the mix of alternate day 24 hour fasting. It's not that easy to induce ulcers. I would also point out that grass has a very high % of water so low calorie content, which is why grazing horses eat for so many hours. Horses that do not have EMS can be offered free choice hay and they will not overeat - which also means they spend a lot of time NOT eating because calories are much more concentrated in hay than pasture.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Here is another helpful post that has more links on free-feeding in horses with EMS:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/257390

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Erin Isaachsen
 

On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 12:59 PM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
This article touches a bit on the myth of 24/7 feeding for horses with EMS, although it is not about ulcers:
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/you-cant-always-follow-your-gut-with-an-ir-horse/
At the end in the Comments section, Dr Kellon addresses a question about ulcers:

First, I want to make it clear I was not advocating fasting – just showing it does not lead to a rise in cortisol.

It takes a minimum of 4 to 6 hours for a meal to completely exit the stomach and small intestine, 2 hours of which is time spent in the stomach but this is also highly variable and even horses not fed for 12 hours are often found to have residual food in their stomachs when examined with an endoscope. I can tell you that researchers attempting to induce ulcers by fasting have found that it takes 4 days of alternating periods of 24 hours fast, 24 hours fed to reliably result in ulcer formation.

Thank you.  This is very helpful and has makes me feel  a bit better about the ulcer question.  I wonder if ulcers are more likely to be caused by actual stress (moving to a new place, pain, anxiety) than not having forage available 24/7.  Anyway, I am very sensitive to the likelihood of ulcers since my mare has already been diagnosed and treated once.  She was very anxious and stressed when she first arrived and it has taken her quite a long time and thoughtful training to get her to settle down and seem relaxed and content in her body.  We still actually have a lot of work to do on getting used to new experiences.
 
--
- Erin

June 2022, Aldie, VA

Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847


Erin Isaachsen
 

Hi Sherry -
Thanks for your input!  I have questions, always questions... :-)


On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 09:34 PM, Sherry Morse wrote:
In your 2019 picture Darla appears to be a 5 to me.  Based on that vs. the picture from today I'd say your estimate of her BCS and amount she needs to lose at a minimum are probably correct. For my horse the weight tape adds 20lbs vs. scale weight but that's him, I can't say if that's true of every horse. With that information on her weight, by the numbers you're correct and she shouldn't be eating more than 21lbs a day. You may need to tweak that if she doesn't lose weight on that amount but that's where you should start.
What BCS does she look like to you in the today picture?  (I estimated 7.)  Do you think she actually weighs1284 lbs!?  Using the weight calculator Excel spreadsheet...it calculates 1284 lbs (Length 186 cm, Girth 193 cm).   I'm hoping I measured incorrectly!

What, in general, are the weight differences between the BCS's for a 15.2 hh draft cross type horse?

Thanks again.
 
--
- Erin

June 2022, Aldie, VA

Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Erin,

For a horse the change in weight for each number on the Henneke scale is about 40-50lbs but it varies.  If you haven't already looked at our chart please do check it: Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io)  and you can also read about the scoring chart in more detail: The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses





Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Erin,

I think stress must be a huge factor in inducing ulcers as performance horses have higher rates.  Even without the performance/trailering/etc aspects, exercise itself is a form of stress.  Check out the table showing various disciplines and ulcer rates here:
https://thehorse.com/19510/feeding-the-ulcer-prone-horse/
Im not advocating some of the recommendations in the article (ie, those who recommend feeding alfalfa because the higher calcium supposedly buffers stomach acid don't understand basic chemistry, see also: https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/alfalfa-and-equine-gastric-ulcers/), but the numbers reported in the thehorse.com article are interesting.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

It is really hard to estimate BCS from a couple photos.  You need to look at oblique angles, and often need to feel the horse, so being there in person is always better.  It doesn't matter what the build type is (draft vs arab), the basics are usually there.  Does she have a crease/dip running down her topline, or is her spine sticking up?  Can you feel her ribs?  How easily can you feel her ribs?  Can you see her ribs?  Don't so much use the photos in the links Sherry gave, but use the descriptions to match which best fit Darla.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

She looks like a 6 to me but you would have to go through the whole check list. Heavily muscled horses like drafts and QH often have a back crease even when in good condition.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Erin Isaachsen
 

Hi Sherry,


On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 10:55 PM, Sherry Morse wrote:
 The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses
 I had already looked at the  Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io), but the  The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses article made it much more clear to me!  Thanks! 
--
- Erin 

June 2022, Aldie, VA

Darla  2009 15.2H Draft-x Mare
Niles  1998 38" Mini Gelding
Sparky  2007 37" Mini Gelding