question on testing
I have a mare that is borderline PPID and definitely IR per tests in January. I am going to get her tested again in a few weeks and I wonder about testing for leptin and thyroid levels. Is it worth it to get those test and what can they tell me?
Thanks. Erin -- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847 |
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Sherry Morse
Hello Erin, Welcome to the group! Thank you so much for having your case history completed already. Based on the TRH stim results you have Darla should have been started on Pergolide or Prascend right after testing. Was her insulin bloodwork done non-fasting (4 hours after the first meal of the day) or was that result from fasting bloodwork? I'm guessing your entry for her current weight was meant to be today. If that's correct she's at least 30lbs overweight based on what you have listed as her ideal weight but a 7 is usually about 100lbs heavier than the 4.5 - 5 BCS we recommend for an IR horse. So getting her diet addressed would be the first place you should start. For an overweight horse we recommend 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal - whichever is greater - to help them lose weight. For a horse that should be 975lbs 2% is 19.5lbs and 1.5% of the 1115 would be 16.725. So you want to limit her diet to 19.5lbs a day total - that includes hay and any concentrates. Looking at the case history are you weighing her hay or is the 20lbs a day an estimate? We do not recommend alfalfa for IR horses as it can make some of them footy and timothy pellets are not guaranteed to be below the 10% ESC+starch that we recommend for an IR horse. If you need something to feed supplements we recommend rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp and a minimum amount of that to get supplements in. Based on the numbers you've provided Darla is currently eating:
For a total of 22.5lbs a day which is 3lbs more than she needs to lose weight. So a diet change is order not just in content but in amounts. As you'll read in our DIET section below we recommend soaking hay until you can get it tested. To the rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp you'll add Magnesium, Flax, Vitamin E and salt. Again, you'll want to feed the minimum amount of beet pulp to get these supplements in so about a pound or two a day. That means no more than 17.5lbs of hay which should be weighed and not just a guesstimate. With all of that being said what follows is our very informative welcome letter. Get comfortable as there's a lot to read here. As far as your initial question, without instituting a diet change and getting her on medication for the PPID I would wait on running more tests. Once you start a new diet and add medication in you can retest in 3 weeks to see if the changes are bringing down her insulin. As she's early PPID the TRH stim testing can be tricky while on medication but you don't want to take a chance of running into an issue during the seasonal rise. The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Hi Erin
RE: Leptin testing, this is from our website ecirhorse.org: "The fat-derived hormone, leptin, is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance. There are many other things that can lower or increase leptin — age, weight, sudden changes in nutrient requirements such as foaling, starting an exercise program, differences between breeds. ECIR does not recommend routine testing for this hormone." RE: Thyroid testing, while nice to have, the ACTH and insulin/glucose are the main tests recommended by ECIR. (see website above and Sherry's welcome post to you.) Many members have found sluggish thyroid results initially that become more healthy when weight loss and diet recommendations are instituted. Adequate iodine and selenium are important for thyroid. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2021-2022 |
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Hi Sherry & Nancy--
Thanks for replying so quickly! Answering/commenting on a few things that Sherry wrote: I'm guessing your entry for her current weight was meant to be today. If that's correct she's at least 30lbs overweight based on what you have listed as her ideal weight but a 7 is usually about 100lbs heavier than the 4.5 - 5 BCS we recommend for an IR horse. So getting her diet addressed would be the first place you should start. For an overweight horse we recommend 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal - whichever is greater - to help them lose weight. For a horse that should be 975lbs 2% is 19.5lbs and 1.5% of the 1115 would be 16.725.The current weight of 1115 is from a few days ago; I just checked it again today and it is more like 1122. I assume you mean at least 130 lbs overweight, not 30? Looking back in my records from the summer of 2020 when she was actually weighed on a scale at a vet hospital (had endoscopies to diagnose ulcers & monitor ulcer treatment), I have her ideal weight wrong. I bought her in March 2020 and she was very slim and fit from being used as a field hunter, I'd say BCS 4.5 (high side of Moderately Thin); here is a picture. I opened my pastures in May, 2020, so she was on grass starting then and started to gain some weight and was at BCS 5 (Moderate). June 24 she weighed 1090 lbs. July 24--1066 lbs. August 20--1080 lbs. So perhaps her ideal weight is actually more like 1050 lbs? This is a picture of her from today. Weight tape measurement 1122 lbs. How closely does weight tape measurement compare to actual weight? Is it usually high or low? If the weight tape measurement is at all accurate, she need to lose 72 lbs, which is more in line with my BCS of 7. So that would put her ration at the higher of 0.015 x 1122 = 16.8 lbs & 0.02 x 1050 = 21 lbs, so 21 lbs. Looking at the case history are you weighing her hay or is the 20lbs a day an estimate?I am estimating it right now, but I do have a scale I will be putting up so I can actually weigh the hay. Darla lives with two larger minis (37" & 38" height at withers) on a dirt track--I am estimating their ideal weights are about 300 each. One has PPID and is medicated and his body score looks ok. The other has not been tested for anything, BCS 6 I'd say. I feed them all in slow feed nets on the track, so I assume if they all eat steadily (and they do) that everyone will get the correct amount. Not sure how else to manage things! I want them to be out walking (they keep each other moving) and slowly but constantly eating (to ward off ulcers and maintain healthy digestion), so I do not want to isolate them from each other. -- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA done the first summer I had Darla--she was Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847 |
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I just found the weight calculator Excel spreadsheet...it calculates 1284 lbs (Length 186 cm, Girth 193 cm). Ok, so now I am frightened. :-(
-- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Erin, In your 2019 picture Darla appears to be a 5 to me. Based on that vs. the picture from today I'd say your estimate of her BCS and amount she needs to lose at a minimum are probably correct. For my horse the weight tape adds 20lbs vs. scale weight but that's him, I can't say if that's true of every horse. With that information on her weight, by the numbers you're correct and she shouldn't be eating more than 21lbs a day. You may need to tweak that if she doesn't lose weight on that amount but that's where you should start. As far as the feeding situation you may need to rethink how you are doing that. That may mean dividing the track up so the ponies are in one section and Darla is in another so she can't eat more than what she should be eating. As she's bigger than the ponies, there's a good chance she's eating more than her share of the hay that's put out for them.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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slowly but constantly eating (to ward off ulcers and maintain healthy digestion)This myth about ulcers and needing access to constant forage is totally overblown. For horses with EMS, they are resistant to leptin, which is the hormone that tells them to stop eating because they are full. Leptin gets higher in the blood but the brain doesn't register it, so they keep eating. Ulcers can occur when horses are alternately fed and fasted for extreme periods (>24hrs), but they also occur in high proportions in horses on full time pasture. Dr Kellon has referenced the research on this previously. Perhaps she can add to this discussion with links to those papers again, and correct me if I'm wrong in any of this... Controlling diet is unfortunately a necessary part of caring for horses with EMS as they truly cannot, and never will be able to, restrict themselves. Meals can be up to 4-6 hrs apart without adverse effects on insulin. This article touches a bit on the myth of 24/7 feeding for horses with EMS, although it is not about ulcers: https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/you-cant-always-follow-your-gut-with-an-ir-horse/ At the end in the Comments section, Dr Kellon addresses a question about ulcers:
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Kirsten is correct, and the most recent model for inducing ulcers experimentally has added phenylbutazone to the mix of alternate day 24 hour fasting. It's not that easy to induce ulcers. I would also point out that grass has a very high % of water so low calorie content, which is why grazing horses eat for so many hours. Horses that do not have EMS can be offered free choice hay and they will not overeat - which also means they spend a lot of time NOT eating because calories are much more concentrated in hay than pasture.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Here is another helpful post that has more links on free-feeding in horses with EMS:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/257390 -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 12:59 PM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
This article touches a bit on the myth of 24/7 feeding for horses with EMS, although it is not about ulcers:Thank you. This is very helpful and has makes me feel a bit better about the ulcer question. I wonder if ulcers are more likely to be caused by actual stress (moving to a new place, pain, anxiety) than not having forage available 24/7. Anyway, I am very sensitive to the likelihood of ulcers since my mare has already been diagnosed and treated once. She was very anxious and stressed when she first arrived and it has taken her quite a long time and thoughtful training to get her to settle down and seem relaxed and content in her body. We still actually have a lot of work to do on getting used to new experiences. -- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847 |
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Hi Sherry -
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Thanks for your input! I have questions, always questions... :-) On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 09:34 PM, Sherry Morse wrote: In your 2019 picture Darla appears to be a 5 to me. Based on that vs. the picture from today I'd say your estimate of her BCS and amount she needs to lose at a minimum are probably correct. For my horse the weight tape adds 20lbs vs. scale weight but that's him, I can't say if that's true of every horse. With that information on her weight, by the numbers you're correct and she shouldn't be eating more than 21lbs a day. You may need to tweak that if she doesn't lose weight on that amount but that's where you should start.What BCS does she look like to you in the today picture? (I estimated 7.) Do you think she actually weighs1284 lbs!? Using the weight calculator Excel spreadsheet...it calculates 1284 lbs (Length 186 cm, Girth 193 cm). I'm hoping I measured incorrectly! What, in general, are the weight differences between the BCS's for a 15.2 hh draft cross type horse? Thanks again. -- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA Darla Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Erin%20and%20Darla Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275847 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Erin, For a horse the change in weight for each number on the Henneke scale is about 40-50lbs but it varies. If you haven't already looked at our chart please do check it: Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io) and you can also read about the scoring chart in more detail: The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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Hi Erin,
I think stress must be a huge factor in inducing ulcers as performance horses have higher rates. Even without the performance/trailering/etc aspects, exercise itself is a form of stress. Check out the table showing various disciplines and ulcer rates here: https://thehorse.com/19510/feeding-the-ulcer-prone-horse/ Im not advocating some of the recommendations in the article (ie, those who recommend feeding alfalfa because the higher calcium supposedly buffers stomach acid don't understand basic chemistry, see also: https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/alfalfa-and-equine-gastric-ulcers/), but the numbers reported in the thehorse.com article are interesting. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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It is really hard to estimate BCS from a couple photos. You need to look at oblique angles, and often need to feel the horse, so being there in person is always better. It doesn't matter what the build type is (draft vs arab), the basics are usually there. Does she have a crease/dip running down her topline, or is her spine sticking up? Can you feel her ribs? How easily can you feel her ribs? Can you see her ribs? Don't so much use the photos in the links Sherry gave, but use the descriptions to match which best fit Darla.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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She looks like a 6 to me but you would have to go through the whole check list. Heavily muscled horses like drafts and QH often have a back crease even when in good condition.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Hi Sherry,
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On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 10:55 PM, Sherry Morse wrote: The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For HorsesI had already looked at the Body Condition Scoring Guide.pdf (groups.io), but the The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses article made it much more clear to me! Thanks! -- - Erin June 2022, Aldie, VA Darla 2009 15.2H Draft-x Mare
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