Update on Isaac


Mialisa@...
 

Isaac is still refusing to eat his supplements/timothy pellets since upping his Prascend does to the full dose of 1/2 tab. I lowered it back to 1/4 tab about two weeks ago and he still will not eat his supplements. He eats his hay as normal.  I have tried cinnamon, fenugreek, putting less supplements, adding 1/4 cup stabilized rice bran. I am checking the boxes on the picky eaters list and will continue working my way through the list. I have started leaving out Spirulina to start isolating. No luck yet. I am concerned that he is not getting his balanced supplements to grow a good hoof. He tends to get WLD, which has all since grown out, but still concerned. I thought I had added his Prascend to the CH under medicine but it is not there, I will update that with specific dates.
I know this will be a red flag but I have thought about going back to whole oats to get him eating again. The TC timothy cubes and Stabul 1 are not available at the local TSC and the feed mill will special order but the price doubles. It must not be in high demand in this area.
Thank you for your support.
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Rene,

You can order Stabul 1 from Chewy.com. You could use high dose Jiaogulan or APF to counteract the appetite issue. How is his hoof comfort? His last insulin in the history is dangerously high. Are you soaking his hay?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


sunygirl06@...
 

Where are you in WI? Pulaski Warehouse carries TC Timothy balance cubes. I bought their last bags and waiting for the next shipment, but might be an option.

Also, seems silly but after trying to get my mare to eat beet pulp, I tried the picky eater protocol by giving her fresh beet pulp every night in her stall. Then when she wouldn't eat it I would set it out in front of her for my gelding to eat it. She decided then that it must be good since he was eating it and she kicked him out of her bucket. Maybe worth a try. 

I'm sure the moderators will have advice. But I've also mixed the supps in water and poured over her hay when she was being stubborn and would only eat hay (some ends up on the ground but I think it still gets them used to the taste) some people syringe it I've read on here, but haven't needed to try that myself.
--
Amber Lauer
September 2016, Black Creek, WI

Sunny Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Sunny/Sunny%20Case%20History.pdf


Mialisa@...
 

Isaac has not been lame in the last year or more. Maybe because I have been more careful not to feed alfalfa. I have not had a need to soak the hay.

I forgot to mention that I did increase the Jiaogulan this week, but have not been feeding this separately and am currently devising a plan to implement feeding separately.
Thank you.
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Mialisa@...
 


Mialisa@...
 

Stabul 1 from Chewy is on back order for the fenugreek and peppermint. they have banana, but as we have never tried this before I am hesitant to buy it. Sometimes I think it is a sign from above when I keep hitting walls not to move forward with this.

We did give the Jiaogulan this morning and Isaac ate it out of my hand, but still refused the supplements. I will continue this for a few more days before trying as Amber suggested and pouring them over his hay. Or I can start syringing it.
Thank You!!!
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


sunygirl06@...
 

Probably about an hour for you (to Pulaski Warehouse). It's about 40 min for myself so I always call before I go to make sure they actually have the cubes in stock (not just in stock according to their computer) before I make the trip. Last price was 27.99/bag. Maybe worth a trip to get a few bags once they have them back in . . . 

Good luck with your trouble maker! 
--
Amber Lauer
September 2016, Black Creek, WI

Sunny Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Sunny/Sunny%20Case%20History.pdf


 

Hi, René.
Isaac is one handsome guy. Does that photo reflect his current body condition? FWIW my horses have all liked banana flavored Stabul 1.  You can get small quantities of flavors directly from Anderson Feeds to test palatability .  http://stabul1.com/contact/  Whatever flavor you try, I suggest feeding it first in small quantities without minerals to get Isaac used to it. I like to add a teaspoon of salt first. 

The sign from above that I see is that equines are world class experts at masking pain as diet pickiness and as intermittent lameness.  Keep it simple, work simultaneously to control all the factors at work on Isaac, and be patient. Oats and rice bran are NOT the solution here. They will make his insulin resistance worse and can trigger laminitis. Getting his insulin and PPID under control are critical.  Are you still feeding the Oct. 2021 hay with the analysis in your CH folder? ESC+ starch at 9.7% is very high for a pony. Soaking will reduce that ESC, as Dr Kellon recommends. 

 Keep trying jiaogulan twice a day and make sure you are seeing pinker tongue and gums. If Isaac were mine, I'd try again to increase his pergolide dose. The seasonal rise is coming. I'm already increasing my horses' pergolide to make sure we're ready. The effects of uncontrolled PPID can be confused with the veil, but the veil is almost always temporary. The equine can act spacey and distracted, walking away from hay like he forgot what he was doing or isn't hungry. The veil does go away after several days. Poor acceptance of bucket feed and lethargy aren't exclusive signs of the veil. Both can be associated with uncontrolled PPID, pain, and other conditions. They don't make it easy on us.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Mialisa@...
 

Hi Amber,
Pulaski is 1.5 hrs from me, maybe more as I am near Lake Michigan. Price of gas and time to travel is not wise use of money in my opinion. With 4 to care for I try to spend as wisely as I can. Thank you for your suggestion. Isaac has started nibbling on the timothy pellets again. BUT still not cleaning his plate. He has always been food oriented and has only started refusing to eat his supplements when I went to the full 1/2 tab of Prascend. I thought by going back to the 1/4 tab he would come around, Just not yet!
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rene,

Have you started him on APF as suggested by Dr. Kellon?  




Mialisa@...
 

Thanks Cass! I do have a special spot in my heart for Isaac. Gosh, I appreciate your reply. I wish I could share a video of Isaac to show how he behaves/walks/runs/causes trouble and just plain acts like a normal pony. After many years of wondering why he has issues it is a relief to have a group like this with all this knowledge.

It may surprise you to know that Isaac has not foundered like Joshua has, Isaac overgrows everything and is susceptible to white line disease. Now that I am trimming him myself (just keeping up with growth at 4 week trims) and have a better understanding of how to trim my ponies thanks to this group and Pete Ramey articles (how I found ECIR) both ponies are doing much better.

For nearly 22 years I was trying everything the vets said to do and any information I could find online to help my ponies. I did not know how to trim feet before 2019. A good friend got me started and after that I studied the Pete Ramey articles. In 2016 the independent Vet I am using now recommended putting Joshua to sleep after looking at X-rays. When I started trimming, Joshua had zero concavity at the apex of the frog. Now after 3 years I am finally seeing natural normal concavity. Last year I spent the whole year trimming both ponies every two weeks. This trim knowledge and the vast amount of information I have found here on diet and IR and PPID has changed my ponies lives for the better!! So grateful!!

So now we have hit another bump in the road to healing but I believe with patience and time we will overcome this too.
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Mialisa@...
 

Hi Sherry,
Dr. Kellon suggested increasing Jiaogulan as the APF has ginseng ingredients. So that is where we are.
Increasing and feeding it 20 mins before feeding time. That is a struggle in itself. They are so used to getting their supplements right away. :) thanks for caring!
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rene,

I must have missed that as in this reply she suggested increasing both: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/279455 




Mialisa@...
 

No problem Sherry!

I went to the Stabul 1 website and ordered the samples to try. They say TSC has this product but every time I check I do not find it. TSC tells me the manager will call me about ordering Stabul 1, but I still have not received a call and it has been 2-3 weeks. TSC would be so much more convenient as I visit them frequently.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

TSC only carries the Stabul 1 on their website, not in stores. You can order it directly from the website.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


ferne fedeli
 

Interesting that TSC only carries on website...  I would certainly recommend ordering Stabul 1 from CHEWY.  They are MUCH easier to deal with than TSC (at least that has been my experience).  Don't know about pricing, but they should be similar, I would think.
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

Point Arena, Mendocino County, California
Case History

 

 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree Chewy is more reliable than TSC. If you are having trouble with your local TSC it's worth contacting Anderson Feed directly http://stabul1.com/stabul-1/ and apparently Mad Barn USA is also carrying it https://madbarn.com/feeds/stabul-1/ .
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Mialisa@...
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon, how timely your response is. Friday, I finally got to talk to someone at TSC and they definitely do not stock the Stabul 1 or the TC timothy cubes. Also any ship to store will cost me an extra 16.99 per order. As with anything requiring shipping the price goes up. I always try to get free shipping, but when I did the order for TSC for 2 bags they just charged another extra 16.99 ($34 for shipping two bags). Ya, I am not doing that. So I will continue searching. I do have samples on the way from Anderson Feed.

Isaac was starting to nibble at the supplements but still leaving a lot in his dish. And he will not eat the vitamin e soft gel. I may have to go back to the powder for him. To try another way, the last two feedings I left out the timothy pellets, and he ate his supplements, but this morning he said nope again. Since I realized that he will not eat the soft gel, I am now wondering if he really liked the powder vit e with olive oil. If only I had paid attention sooner. As always I have a lot of theories and just keep whittling my way through.
--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua


Ardie for Lexi and Cimarron
 

I order Stabul1 from Chewy, along with a bag of Uckele treats. I have them on Autoship, and save 2%, and FREE shipping...and I don't forget to order. 

--
Ardyce Minch
Cody, Wyoming
July 5, 2021


Ronelle
 

Here's what I do to make sure my horse gets his vitamin E and A using gel caps.   I've been lucky my horse eats the vitamin gel caps, but at times he would not, even though the caps would soften in the wet mash. (I make morning and night pans at the same time so the hay pellets can breakdown in water).  And since I have electricity where I mix the mash, I now use a microwave oven to heat water (to boiling and about 1 cup water) in a glass measuring cup.  I mix the hay pellets and minerals in the pans, making a small "volcano" shaped pile and then make a depression in the center of pile to drop the caps in.  Then I pour the hot water onto the caps.  This melts the caps quickly and releases the oil/vitamin mix.  I then pour more cold water to soften the hay pellets.  When it's feeding time, I pour more water in to make a very wet mash.
--
Ronelle and Yoyo
2015 Bend, Or, US