I'm already feeling overwhelmed and tired but appears I will need to do corrective trims on Apollo.  Haven't been able to do much lately due to my own health issues but doing much better now.   I'm not seeing much improvement in Apollo's hooves and I think it's because farrier isn't really addressing hoof problems.  Seems he is just waiting for hooves to grow out by themselves.  Farrier didn't say much when I shared ECIR suggestions with him except doesn't agree Apollo's heels are under-run.  I wasn't familiar with condition, but after doing some research, I can see it.  Here's my current assessment of Apollo's hooves:  under run heels seem worse on right than left, backed left toe more than right, but toe still long, severe flares on sides not touched, in some areas hoof walls are uneven lengths from surface of sole.  Fortunately, Apollo remains comfortable in Clouds with pads and not showing evidence of foot soreness but I know he's not going to get better this way.

We bought a new rasp but neither my husband or myself have done any trimming.  Found a lot of information on backing up the toes. Work on area from 10 to 2 O'clock.  Start when he's standing with his foot on the floor and then pick foot up to finish.  Not sure about doing side flares.  Are they done like toe area i.e. start when he's standing?  I know one has to be careful not do too much at once in this area as it can make him sore. Looked at diagram on ramping heel but nervous about trying it and making it worse.

Any help you can give me will be appreciated.  Farrier due back for another trim in 2 weeks but don't want to wait that long.  Have lost too much time already.

--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Hi Karen

Hang in there. It's hard work but oh so very, very rewarding when you get it right. I had to take over trimming my guys' feet when COVID came along. I will be 70 this year. Take it slow. Do it often. When they get rock hard, I soak the feet to give my hands and back a break with the rasp. I plan extra time to get the time that it takes to get the job done allowing for rest of both of us. I take lots of pictures for my own review.

Learning to the read the foot is a great investment of time as well. If one never picks up a rasp, learning the signs as outlined in this video can help owners assess what may or may not be being done by their hoof pros and help open up discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfEzM_SPemQ

In my opinion, unless lots has changed since your fall rads, Apollo should respond well to a physiologically correct trim
More here about that: https://www.ecirhorse.org/realigning-trim.php

Deep breaths. Apollo appreciates you.
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Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022

Okay.  I didn't realize I needed pictures of back feet too.  Will do ASAP.  Is it same 4 views as fronts?  Will concavity and heel views also be needed?  I apologize for so many questions beforehand. I imagine it must be very tedious having to answer us "newbees" questions so many times.  
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Hi Nancy,
Thanks so much for your kind words of encouragement and additional information.  I may have just joined this group recently but I've been struggling with Apollo's hoof related health issues for more than a year.  I know I will get some flack for saying this but sometimes I'm tempted to just give up.  No matter what I do, nothing ever seems to be enough.  I do care about Apollo very much but it's emotionally, financially and physically exhausting at times trying to meet his many, seemly endless needs. I honestly didn't think it would be this hard for this long and if I had known, I'm not sure if I would have started because it seems no matter what you do, in terms of health, you've still dealing with an equine time bomb.  Unfortunately all this stress is affecting my health.  Had my post-op check-up today and although I'm doing well, my doctor says healing is a bit slow and that's probably because of my high stress level. Not sure how, but obviously I'm going to have to learn to deal with everything much better.  I'm actually not entirely comfortable posting these personal comments on this site as I'm normally a very private person and one of reasons I didn't joint ecir.groups.io earlier, but I'm doing so in case it helps someone else who's feeling discouraged, overwhelmed and exhausted.  
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Hey Karen, just know you're not alone.  I get discouraged too sometimes, and when I think about long-term, it's a bit distressing.  I try to stay in the right here today moments.  Yesterday was a good day.  Today looked like it will also be a good day when I saw my horse this morning.  Hang in there, this is the place to get help.  I rode my horse last summer for the first time in 5 years.  Because of this group.  Sending you some hugs and healing energy for you.


--
Joy and Willie (EC/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  Willie's Case History
Willie's photo album:  Willie's Photos

Karen - I have been in your exact situation, and the stress is sometimes unbearable. We love our horses so much, and try to do everything right, and it gets very frustrating. At twice your horse's age, most people thought I should have put Scotty down in the fall/winter of 2017. There were many MANY days and nights I would come into the house crying, and beg God to please just take him gently. The pain of knowing they are suffering is horrible. The financial burden is also horrific. I am the ostrich...I hide my head in the sand and don't add up the costs, and just pray for provision for his needs.

5 years later, I am still learning, still experimenting, and Scotty is (I believe) doing as well as he can for a horse of his advanced age. He's happy, he can walk well in his boots, and we still have an incredible bond. I admit there was once I called the vet to put him down (and by the time he got here, the situation had changed) and a couple of times I have asked the vet if it is time. She undeniably says, "No!"

It's easy to say hang in there, when you are the one doing the hanging, by the skin of your teeth. I can assure you Apollo knows you are trying your best, and he is lucky to have you. I know how exhausting it can be, so don't forget to take good care of yourself when you can. As one of my vets used to say, if it's a choice between me getting medical attention or Scotty, he knows I choose Scotty. Pretty dumb on my part, but that is how much I love him. Any of us that undertake this journey are on similar paths and need the support of others.
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Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Hi Karen,

You won't get any flack here, I'm sure almost everyone here has wanted to give up for the sane reasons.  I hope you will find there are a few key turning points.  When things seemed like they were getting worse and worse for Shaku, diagnosing early PPID then getting the pergolide dose high enough was our turning point, and things have been much easier since then.  My vet doesnt agree with everything I've learned here but she has no problem admitting Shaku is alive because of it.

Learning to trim was very frustrating for me and resulted in lots of tears and frustration and anger.  My horse was too sore to hold his feet up and I was too slow.  It took an hour to do 1 hoof, if I could even finish it, which wasn't often.  Now, being able to routinely trim my horse (12 min/hoof) is one of the achievements I am most proud of, and I am grateful to not have to depend on someone else to do it for me.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Thanks for your kind and reassuring words.  I'm one of those people too, who takes care of their animals before themselves.  I haven't added up all I've spent either but I know it's a lot and cost keeps going up.  I think that's what is bringing me down the most, how much it costs to help Apollo and wondering how long will I be able to keep doing it, having retired this past January.  I've never been into wanting to have lots of money.  It certainly can't buy happiness, but it definitely "buys" choices.  Also, hoof trimming is not something I really want to do but if it will help, I'll do it.  

You've been through a lot with Scotty.  Not every one can or will take care of a horse that needs that kind of help.  Some people won't even do it for their human family members.  I understand how strong a bond can be between animals and "their" people.  Not only horses but all kinds of animals have always had a special place in my heart and I've never turned away any needing help.  Probably why I have a menagerie of assorted species of animals, many of whom their owners no longer wanted.

And if memory serves me correctly, Deb, you are the one who told me about Kurt's Feed and Seed as a source of OD timothy balance cubes.  We bought a whole pallet, saved $12 a bag compared to where I had to special order it here in Wisconsin.  Was only 90 minute drive from our house and could haul full pallet on back of pick-up so didn't need to pull horse trailer which saved a lot on gas.  Thanks so much for the tip.  


--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

HI Kirsten,
Thanks for encouragement and sharing your hoof trimming experience. It would be nice not having to depend on someone else to trim Apollo's hooves since it's such a critical part of his recovery.  I'd also save some money since he's currently being trimmed every 4 weeks.  I'd honestly rather work with vets than farriers maybe because I worked in health care for 36 years and understand more on how doctors think.  Our farrier is well respected and very nice person who really cares about helping people with their horses so I don't understand why he doesn't seem more interested in ECIR suggestions.  He told me he doesn't think photographs of horse hooves always accurately show what's going on.  Should also tell you he also does photography. 

I am surprised Apollo is as comfortable as he is in his boots and pads.  He hasn't moved this well in over a year. Sometimes Apollo trots and canters in paddock when our younger horse if goofing off.  Have even seen him buck a couple of times.  Makes me cringe because I worry he is damaging his feet more.  Footing is fairly soft but paddock is slightly sloped.  When he walks on firm, flat surface he seems to be fulling extending his knees and feet come down heel first but he sometimes also seems to trip on left side. We've only done short 5 minute walks outside of his paddock just to give him some mental stimulation.  He really enjoys it and remains comfortable after.

Didn't get rear hoof pictures last night. Hopefully will get tonight with husband's help but think I should begin trimming now.  Found info on taking long toes back but not how to reduce flares on sides of hooves.  Do I file them from top or bottom or from both directions like when backing toes?  Found picture in ECIR files on where to file on under-run heel but need more input on which heels and how much.

Karen
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Karen....I am beyond ecstatic that my local distributor was within your driving range. Kurt's Feed is a family run business, and they are the best. So glad that it worked out for you and Apollo. It's a longer drive from there to Chana, IL to get Stabul...but again, they are excellent people to work with and I trust them because Dr. Kellon has helped them to develop their protocols. So if you are ever making the trip down here to get ODTBC or  Stabul, please let me know. We are not that far apart and I would love to meet you and have you meet my old boy.

I feel like we are in the same boat...just doing the best we can with our finances...to take care of our animals.

I think I am working with a good farrier again, who shows up on time, and is quickly becoming a friend. NO ONE I have worked with was willing to take advice on hoof trimming from this board. My current farrier understands what I have been through, and I don't feel as if I have to tread quite as lightly around her. I assure her that she is the expert, and when I ask a question...it is just that...a question. Her answers and explanations make sense to me. After much hesitation, I bought a small rasp, and if I think Scotty's feet look a little *off* between his 4 week trims, I am taking a few swipes here and there. I would never feel confident enough to do it 100%, but I now have an option to help him out.

We all need support...I am glad that my suggestion helped you out.


--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Scotty is such a cutey.  Doesn't look his age. I like your modified tank feeder!  Very ingenious.

Don't think we will be going back to Kurt's Feed until sometime in fall unless I can't find any safe hay to feed and ODTBC is all I have!  OMG certainly hope not. I'll have to come out of retirement and get a job to afford to feed a 1400+ lb horse bagged hay cubes. I'm currently buying my Stabul 1 pellets from Chewy as I'm only using small quantity to give Apollo his Prascend but he loves it.  Everyone at both Kurt's Feed and Anderson Feed stores have been great to work with.  If I ever need to get large quantities of Stabul 1, we get it from Anderson Feed but it's quite a bit farther to drive for us than Kurt's.  I checked into ordering Stabul 1 through closest Tractor Supply store but it was $43/bag.  I think it's $19 at Anderson's.  Cheapest flavor at Chewy is around $27/bag.  Definitely got to do price comparisons before buying horse products.

Do you know of anyone in northern Illinois has tested safe hay for an IR horse? I'm still waiting for test results from commercial grower I'm hoping to buy from.  Even a small amount 20-25 bales would help.
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Hi Karen,

Found info on taking long toes back but not how to reduce flares on sides of hooves.  Do I file them from top or bottom or from both directions like when backing toes?

In my limited experience it's easier on the horse to shorten toes first, and leave the side flares until you see how they respond to the toe shortening.  Toes can be shortened quite dramatically all at once and most horses don't react negatively to it.  When you get your markups from Lavinia you'll see how far back you can take the toes in one trim.  A few days or a week after toe shortening, if they are still comfortable, start working on the side flares.  You can reduce them gradually, a little every few days, and make sure your horse isn't getting more sore as you remove them.  Sometimes removing side flares makes them more comfortable, as long as their soles are supported in padded boots or on very soft ground.  Other times the removal of the little bit of support the side flares still offer can make them more sore.  So take the side flares off more slowly.   You can remove them from the top, then gently round/roll from below, just don't remove any sole when addressing side flares.

When he walks on firm, flat surface he seems to be fulling extending his knees and feet come down heel first but he sometimes also seems to trip on left side

What you are seeing is an effect of long toes and underrun heels, where they have to land heel first because of the shape of the hoof, and they often trip on the long toes (I would expect more tripping on the RF though, since that is the lower heeled and longer toed hoof).  I'm glad he's feeling good enough to run around though, but you're right that he could potentially do some damage to his tendons and ligaments by over extending them, esp on his right front.

It's true photos don't show everything, but they show a hell of lot that the naked eye can easily miss!  I'm always amazed at what my post-trim photos show I've missed!  Although a few members here have farriers that follow Lavinia's suggestions, we've seen that it's hard for the vast majority of farriers to follow someone else's advice, especially if they think they are doing the right thing.  Sometimes this means letting go of your wonderful caring gentle kind farrier unfortunately.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Karen - Unfortunately I don't know of any good hay source here, as I have not had to check it out for the past 5 years since Scotty is cubes only now. I think living in "farm country" testing hay is kind of "what the heck are you talking about?" They just grow hay, cut hay, and feed it. Our issues are certainly unique.
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Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619