Date
1 - 20 of 33
Help for my mare Alaska
Thank you so much Lavinia! I really appreciate what you have put together for us. Alaska has improved since I last posted. I have been applying hoof hardener and herbal hoof heel and it has really helped her, we are back riding and were able to ride out on the road with no boots! I think her pain mainly comes from her thin soles which once shed, soft and wet in winter become a real problem for her. Do you have any advice on how to help heal the sulcus cracks? I think they are looking better since the ground has dried up a bit but will have a closer look tomorrow. Once her hoof imbalances are corrected is it likely she will start to develop a thicker healthier sole? Or is there anything else I can do to encourage it? I am sending write up and photos to my farrier now so hopefully we can start making some more improvements when he is here Friday. I have noticed that in the past she has been more comfortable with more heal that is standing up straighter but was hard for me to explain what I meant to my farrier so thank you so much for making it clear:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Eli,
I've added mark-ups to Alaska's album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Nice job on the photos. Generally, the trim is looking pretty nice - a lot better than most of the ones we see. Biggest issues are that her toes are too long horizontally, so her breakover is too far forward. Heels are underrun, with the fronts also showing central sulcus cracks that have opened up into the live tissue in the heel bulbs. Those will be painful and need to be treated until they heal up fully. Soles on the rads were barely adequate, so there should be no trimming of them at all. Frogs are also being heavily trimmed, with a lot of the waxy, immature frog being exposed. Need to leave the calloused frog in place to provide protection - just trim off any rag-tag bits. Her coffin bones were ground parallel in the July rads, which the underrun heels and horizontally long toes are fostering. Goals of trims should be to back up the toes and encourage the heels to stand up straighter so that they move back under the leg where they can provide proper support to the bony column above.
LF composite: On the radiograph side, pink line shows how the bony column lines up and ends where the the breakover should be - there should be no hoof in ground contact beyond this point. Green line follows the angle of the new growth down toward the ground - it is slightly steeper than the current angle of the dorsal wall. Orange line shows where the heels should be lining up. Blue line is where to back the toe to, with the blue X being the excess toe length. Red line means nothing off the bottom of the foot. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, #2 points to the extensor process. The distance between them denotes the amount of distal descent (aka sinking) that is present.
On the photos side, the pink, green and orange lines are the same as on the rad. The blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad, which is where the toe needs to backed up.
LF sole plane: Inside the blue oval is the central sulcus crack that has spread down into the deeper tissues where it shouldn't be. The yellow lines are ragged bits of frog that can be cleaned up.
LF sole: Blue line at the toe is where to back the toe to. This does go back thru what appears to be the "white line" at ground level. Because the toe has stretched forward, the white line has also moved forward with it so is not a reliable guide anymore. Blue lines in the heels are where to take the walls out of ground contact while leaving the bar and buttress as is so that they can provide the weight bearing surface. Doing this encourages the horn tubules in the heels to relax an drop down into a more upright stance without losing critical vertical height there.
RF lateral composite: On the rad side, same idea as the for the LF. Back the toe to the blue line, with the blue X being the excess length. Main difference between the two is that this foot has very minimal sinking present.
On the photo side, again, the green, pink and orange lines are the same as on the rad, with the solid blue area corresponding to the toe that needs to be backed up.
RF sole plane: Follow the discussion for the LF.
RF sole: Solid blue line show where to back up the toe to, while the blue hashed are is the excess toe length that corresponds to the blue X on the rad. Yellow lines run thru some ragged pieces of frog that have detached from the backs of the heels and can be removed.
LH dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the new growth down to the ground. Blue is some residual flaring that can be removed.
LH lateral: Similar to the fronts, the green line follows the angle of the new growth toward the ground. Orange line shows where the heels should be. Blue area is where to take the toe back more.
LH sole: Take the toe back to the solid blue line.
RH dorsal: Same as the LH - tighten up the remaining flaring in the lateral wall, back toward the heel.
RH lateral: Same scenario as the other three - take the toe back in the blue area.
RH sole: Bring the toe back to the solid line and the flaring on the lateral side inward to the blue line.
Use boots and pads as needed for comfort. Any boots you use should have n aggressive bevel added to the treads across the toes between 10 and 2 and across the backs of the heels, so that the breakover is in the correct loction and the foot rolls over during landings to encourage the heels to stand up straighter.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
I've added mark-ups to Alaska's album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Nice job on the photos. Generally, the trim is looking pretty nice - a lot better than most of the ones we see. Biggest issues are that her toes are too long horizontally, so her breakover is too far forward. Heels are underrun, with the fronts also showing central sulcus cracks that have opened up into the live tissue in the heel bulbs. Those will be painful and need to be treated until they heal up fully. Soles on the rads were barely adequate, so there should be no trimming of them at all. Frogs are also being heavily trimmed, with a lot of the waxy, immature frog being exposed. Need to leave the calloused frog in place to provide protection - just trim off any rag-tag bits. Her coffin bones were ground parallel in the July rads, which the underrun heels and horizontally long toes are fostering. Goals of trims should be to back up the toes and encourage the heels to stand up straighter so that they move back under the leg where they can provide proper support to the bony column above.
LF composite: On the radiograph side, pink line shows how the bony column lines up and ends where the the breakover should be - there should be no hoof in ground contact beyond this point. Green line follows the angle of the new growth down toward the ground - it is slightly steeper than the current angle of the dorsal wall. Orange line shows where the heels should be lining up. Blue line is where to back the toe to, with the blue X being the excess toe length. Red line means nothing off the bottom of the foot. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, #2 points to the extensor process. The distance between them denotes the amount of distal descent (aka sinking) that is present.
On the photos side, the pink, green and orange lines are the same as on the rad. The blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad, which is where the toe needs to backed up.
LF sole plane: Inside the blue oval is the central sulcus crack that has spread down into the deeper tissues where it shouldn't be. The yellow lines are ragged bits of frog that can be cleaned up.
LF sole: Blue line at the toe is where to back the toe to. This does go back thru what appears to be the "white line" at ground level. Because the toe has stretched forward, the white line has also moved forward with it so is not a reliable guide anymore. Blue lines in the heels are where to take the walls out of ground contact while leaving the bar and buttress as is so that they can provide the weight bearing surface. Doing this encourages the horn tubules in the heels to relax an drop down into a more upright stance without losing critical vertical height there.
RF lateral composite: On the rad side, same idea as the for the LF. Back the toe to the blue line, with the blue X being the excess length. Main difference between the two is that this foot has very minimal sinking present.
On the photo side, again, the green, pink and orange lines are the same as on the rad, with the solid blue area corresponding to the toe that needs to be backed up.
RF sole plane: Follow the discussion for the LF.
RF sole: Solid blue line show where to back up the toe to, while the blue hashed are is the excess toe length that corresponds to the blue X on the rad. Yellow lines run thru some ragged pieces of frog that have detached from the backs of the heels and can be removed.
LH dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the new growth down to the ground. Blue is some residual flaring that can be removed.
LH lateral: Similar to the fronts, the green line follows the angle of the new growth toward the ground. Orange line shows where the heels should be. Blue area is where to take the toe back more.
LH sole: Take the toe back to the solid blue line.
RH dorsal: Same as the LH - tighten up the remaining flaring in the lateral wall, back toward the heel.
RH lateral: Same scenario as the other three - take the toe back in the blue area.
RH sole: Bring the toe back to the solid line and the flaring on the lateral side inward to the blue line.
Use boots and pads as needed for comfort. Any boots you use should have n aggressive bevel added to the treads across the toes between 10 and 2 and across the backs of the heels, so that the breakover is in the correct loction and the foot rolls over during landings to encourage the heels to stand up straighter.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
Are Alaska's periods of showing estrus unusually long? What is the time period between showing estrus?
--
Eleanor in PA
--
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001
The first step to wisdom is "I don't know."
The term used was probably hemorrhagic follicle. There has been great resistance to using the term "cystic follicles" in mares for some reason but no matter what you call it these are follicles that don't rupture/ovulate normally. Ovulation is an inflammatory event and that continues until the follicle eventually starts to form corpus luteum-like tissue and everything quiets down.
In women, it is well established that cystic ovaries are associated with IR and testosterone excess. They respond to measures either directed at the ovaries (like birth control pills) or at the IR (like metformin). In mares, it has been more of a chicken or egg question but one mare did have ovaries removed without improvement in her IR. Your mare may be the first one we have encountered that is more driven by the ovarian issue.
I understand your hesitation about the surgery. You might want to download the ovarian proceedings from the 2015 NO Laminitis conference https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php to show to your vet and try either a 4 times human dose of a low progesterone BCP or estradiol only at 4 to 6 mg/day.
Endothelin-1 is a major player in laminitis. Endothelin-2 is a major player in ovulation. Is there a connection? I don't know but obviously something is going on with your mare to cause these episodes.
--
Eleanor in PA
In women, it is well established that cystic ovaries are associated with IR and testosterone excess. They respond to measures either directed at the ovaries (like birth control pills) or at the IR (like metformin). In mares, it has been more of a chicken or egg question but one mare did have ovaries removed without improvement in her IR. Your mare may be the first one we have encountered that is more driven by the ovarian issue.
I understand your hesitation about the surgery. You might want to download the ovarian proceedings from the 2015 NO Laminitis conference https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php to show to your vet and try either a 4 times human dose of a low progesterone BCP or estradiol only at 4 to 6 mg/day.
Endothelin-1 is a major player in laminitis. Endothelin-2 is a major player in ovulation. Is there a connection? I don't know but obviously something is going on with your mare to cause these episodes.
--
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001
Thankyou very much:)
Have started her back on Chasteberry powder-have used this in the past but will give it another go.
Yes she has been scanned when painful (she will colic during her cycle sometimes) the last time this happened the vet found she had an ovarian hematoma, or follicle that wasn't behaving normally? The left ovary was very enlarged. I'm sorry I can't remember technically exactly what he said. Once she had some pain relief and her cycle ended, she was ok again. She has had issues with her left ovary twisting-she has had this manipulated twice by Dr Louise Cosgrove since I have owned her.
We have been considering removing the ovaries. But it has been difficult to find a vet in our area confident to do so and I feel worried about complications. I will do some more research into it.
Hopefully with new guidance on her trim and ruling out causes we can get her feeling better soon. I am worried about how she will go coming back into season soon.
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Have started her back on Chasteberry powder-have used this in the past but will give it another go.
Yes she has been scanned when painful (she will colic during her cycle sometimes) the last time this happened the vet found she had an ovarian hematoma, or follicle that wasn't behaving normally? The left ovary was very enlarged. I'm sorry I can't remember technically exactly what he said. Once she had some pain relief and her cycle ended, she was ok again. She has had issues with her left ovary twisting-she has had this manipulated twice by Dr Louise Cosgrove since I have owned her.
We have been considering removing the ovaries. But it has been difficult to find a vet in our area confident to do so and I feel worried about complications. I will do some more research into it.
Hopefully with new guidance on her trim and ruling out causes we can get her feeling better soon. I am worried about how she will go coming back into season soon.
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Thankyou Lavinia!
Her next trim is booked Friday the 2nd September:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Her next trim is booked Friday the 2nd September:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Eli, Country Park Herbs also sells chastetree berry powder.
https://countrypark.com.au/product/chastetree-berry-powder/
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Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)
Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933
With these and the radiographs, it's safe to say this isn't endocrinopathic laminitis, at least not EMS related. The best thing for her soles is described here https://hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm .
It's possible she has either bouts of IR that accompany trying to ovulate or a systemic inflammatory response at that time. I don't know what blood testing is available to you but I would definitely have her ovaries ultrasounded to check for cysts when she's painful and consider having them removed. Otherwise, I sent you a link to a Chasteberry/Vitex product available in AU in an earlier post.
--
Eleanor in PA
It's possible she has either bouts of IR that accompany trying to ovulate or a systemic inflammatory response at that time. I don't know what blood testing is available to you but I would definitely have her ovaries ultrasounded to check for cysts when she's painful and consider having them removed. Otherwise, I sent you a link to a Chasteberry/Vitex product available in AU in an earlier post.
--
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Eli,
I'll add your mark-ups to Alaska's photo album and put the discussion up in a message here on the main group. I usually try to remember to send you a private note to tell you they ahve been uploaded.
Would you please give me the actual date that the trim is scheduled for so I can put that on my calendar. Thanks.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
I'll add your mark-ups to Alaska's photo album and put the discussion up in a message here on the main group. I usually try to remember to send you a private note to tell you they ahve been uploaded.
Would you please give me the actual date that the trim is scheduled for so I can put that on my calendar. Thanks.
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR
Hi Kristen,
once markups are done where will I find the information?
I am hoping to have them by her next trim (about 2 weeks) :)
I am sure Lavinia is a very busy lady! I just don't want to miss the info if it has been done and I'm not looking in the right spot!:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
once markups are done where will I find the information?
I am hoping to have them by her next trim (about 2 weeks) :)
I am sure Lavinia is a very busy lady! I just don't want to miss the info if it has been done and I'm not looking in the right spot!:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Hi Eleanor,
I had Alaska's resting insulin and glucose bloods done yesterday. I gave her hard feed at 9:30 am and bloods were drawn 1:30pm. She was eating her hay (new hay feed analysis added in her case study photo folder) up until the blood was taken. Values have come back nice and normal.
I am still going to be very careful with her sugar and starch intake as although she is a good body weight, she still has one fatty deposit on her crest and has flared up with diet changes in the past.
Can you recommend anything to help with her thin soles? she cannot tolerate having shoes on, she is very painful when the nails go in.
I am also interested to hear your thoughts on the cycle and ovary issues she has had in relation to her foot pain.
Thanks
Elise:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
I had Alaska's resting insulin and glucose bloods done yesterday. I gave her hard feed at 9:30 am and bloods were drawn 1:30pm. She was eating her hay (new hay feed analysis added in her case study photo folder) up until the blood was taken. Values have come back nice and normal.
Insulin 8 mU/L (< 42)
Glucose 5.5 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.7)
Would it now be safe to say this is not laminitis, but pain and inflammation caused by her thin soles and trim imbalances?I am still going to be very careful with her sugar and starch intake as although she is a good body weight, she still has one fatty deposit on her crest and has flared up with diet changes in the past.
Can you recommend anything to help with her thin soles? she cannot tolerate having shoes on, she is very painful when the nails go in.
I am also interested to hear your thoughts on the cycle and ovary issues she has had in relation to her foot pain.
Thanks
Elise:)
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Yes that's correct. However we have found NIR tests can underestimate the ESC and starch by up to 30%, so this hay could be closer to 13.5% ESC+starch. Near Infrared Spectroscopy is an estimate of chemical components based on the reflection vs absorption of near infrared light. It seems to fo a reasonable job most of the time, but is very inaccurate for measuring carbs. NIR is also not used to estimate trace minerals. Wet chemistry analysis is an actual acid digestion of the hay with measurement of the chemical components and is much more accurate. If you buy this hay, I would have it retested by wet chem methods, and get all the major and trace minerals that the NIR test is missing. You'll need those to supplement appropriate minerals, which in turn will help her grow the healthiest hooves she can.
That said, so far Eli's bloodwork does not indicate IR or PPID, so the sugar and starch in her diet might not be an issue. If you do try this hay, I would start with soaking it. If she's ok with it soaked, you could try unsoaked. If you test her baseline, non-fasting insulin and glucose on this hay, unsoaked, we'll be able to tell you if she has IR or not based on the result.
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
That said, so far Eli's bloodwork does not indicate IR or PPID, so the sugar and starch in her diet might not be an issue. If you do try this hay, I would start with soaking it. If she's ok with it soaked, you could try unsoaked. If you test her baseline, non-fasting insulin and glucose on this hay, unsoaked, we'll be able to tell you if she has IR or not based on the result.
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Thanks Sherry,
What is meant by tested by NIR?
I calculated the combined ESC + Starch to be 10.1% is this incorrect?
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
What is meant by tested by NIR?
I calculated the combined ESC + Starch to be 10.1% is this incorrect?
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Sherry Morse
That hay was tested via NIR and at those levels would not be safe for an IR horse without soaking.
Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
Amazing! thank you so much for the update:)
I have also found some different hay and am thinking of organising a trailer and traveling a couple hours to get it. I have added the feed test to my photo album, I think it looks good but a little unsure as it has 2 values for ESC over both pages.
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
I have also found some different hay and am thinking of organising a trailer and traveling a couple hours to get it. I have added the feed test to my photo album, I think it looks good but a little unsure as it has 2 values for ESC over both pages.
--
Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Hi Eli,
Lavinia has your hoof photos and you are in her line-up for markups. I think there might be 1 ahead of you in the group, unless Lavinia has private requests to deal with as well. If there's a specific date you need them by, please notify her in the hoof markup message thread you started.
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
Lavinia has your hoof photos and you are in her line-up for markups. I think there might be 1 ahead of you in the group, unless Lavinia has private requests to deal with as well. If there's a specific date you need them by, please notify her in the hoof markup message thread you started.
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Sherry Morse
Testing should be at least 4 hours AFTER the first feed of the day. She can have hay right up until the blood is drawn.
--
--
Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet/Scutch%20Case%20History.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
Thankyou Dr Kellon,
There is never really a time when she is not sore, but I would say at the moment she is during her worst being winter so have booked her in for resting insulin and repeat ACTH. Is there anything else you would recommend while the vet is here? Will post results as soon as I get them.
Can I confirm she can have her hard feed in the morning and the test should be withing 4 hours of this and keep hay with her right up until the blood is taken?
I have started a new message titled 'Request for trim markups Lavinia' last week. Is there anything more I need to do to have her trim assessed? Once I have some recommendations for her trim, I can take them to my farrier and hopefully we can work on correcting the imbalances.
Thanks again for all your help.
-- Eli
South Australia 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eli%20and%20Alaska
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=277144
Hi Eli, you can get boot advice in our Horsekeeping sub-group. It sounds like the wet winters softening her soles is part of the problem. I have used Hoof Armour on soles. It's supposed to make them tougher and reduce the amount of moisture they absorb. You also want to make sure she is getting minerals balanced to her pasture and/or hay so she has a better chance to grow healthy hooves and hopefully thicker soles. And make sure your trimmer never removes any sole unless you have xrays showing excess sole. There are lots of horses with thin soles that live in boots though.
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Photo Album
Those numbers are normal. If the testing was done when she was sore, it's not laminitis. If it wasn't, repeat baseline insulin and ACTH if she is sore again. Yes, her thin soles and developing sidebone could cause pain. Your vet is correct about early PPID being worse fall/winter but if there is laminitis there would be high insulin.
For the side bone, her medial to lateral imbalance needs to be corrected.
--
Eleanor in PA
For the side bone, her medial to lateral imbalance needs to be corrected.
--
Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Owner 2001