Mya - waiting on trim - has abscesses - diet /pain please advise
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Lori Ricigliano
Hello I did just find a pure grass hay source yesterday so she is now getting soaked grass hay (20lbs total a day ) instead of grass /alfalfa soaked She lives in cloud boots - baby powder and socks changed daily so feet are dry with no rubs
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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Sherry Morse
Hi Lori, 1 - Bute (or any other NSAID) will slow down the mobilization of abscesses which often leads to the situation you have found yourself in. As it will not help with pain due to laminitis caused by IR and has this effect we recommend stopping it as soon as possible. You need to taper her off of it (see: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/How%20to%20Taper%20Off%20NSAIDs.pdf) and you can replace with Devils Claw or PhytoQuench with Devil's Claw (see https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20control,%20switching%20from%20Bute%20to%20Phyto-Quench.pdf) 2- Magnesium is dosed by weight as outlined in the emergency diet (DDT +E – Diet | ECIR Group, Inc. (ecirhorse.org)) - 1.5g per 500lbs. You can use the human version or buy MgOx from a feed mill as that's much cheaper. 3 - She is definitely IR and since the blood sat since May you don't know if that reflects her current insulin level or not. You should have bloodwork redone 7 - 10 days after being on Metformin to see where her level is now. The current pain level could be due to the insulin being higher than the test results or related to the trim issues and the possibility of abscesses that are not mobilized. Getting her trim in order should help her quite a bit. 4 - Equinety is a waste of money. Dr. Kellon summed it up best here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/270686 5 -Unless Mya has lost a drastic amount of weight since the beginning of this month she's not a 3 but closer to a 4.5 -5 BCS in the pictures you posted. I would expect a 14.3 NSH to be closer to 950-975lbs than a 1000. Regardless of that, she does not appear overweight enough to be on Thryo-L so I would suggest weaning her off of that (1/2 tsp less per week) as her Thyroid level should straighten out once you get the IR under control.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Lori,
I'm working on your mark-ups, should have them up later today. Saw the latest sole shot with the abscess hole. The abscess is visible on the rads, so no surprise it is starting to open. The bute is keeping the abscess(es) from draining and resolving fully. The abscesses themselves could easily be a large part of her discomfort. You can put a diaper over the foot to absorb any exudate. Poulticing her soles with Numotizine might also help draw out the abscesses without softening her already thin soles. https://www.bigdweb.com/product/code/294.do?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIv6X8trWF-QIVaPbjBx1E7gGqEAYYAiABEgIX3vD_BwE To stop the bute you will need to taper the dosing so she doesn't get an NSAID rebound effect - increased pain due to withdrawal: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/How%20to%20Taper%20Off%20NSAIDs.pdf Her toes can most certainly be backed up and her hinds look like there is a lot of excess overall hoof length that can also be removed. As soon as the toes get backed up, a large area of those abscesses will open up immediately. NO, her joint will not come thru her coronary band by trimming off excess amounts of hoof. By restoring the proper balance and mechanics, she will become more comfortable and the hoof capsule will be better able to support her. The Equinity is a waste of your money: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256187?p=%2C%2C%2C20%2C0%2C0%2C0%3A%3Acreated%2C1%2Cequinity%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C77442528 -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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Lori Ricigliano
THANK YOU I needed that guidance
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I’ll taper her bute and pull & add the devils claw I saw in the files Jiaogulan? Would that be something for her ? Dosage ? Called my feed mill they have Mg Ox - how do I dose that correctly for her weight at 900lbs? So like roughly 1 oz of this magic added to beet pulp . Oh beet pulp I rinse first then soak - should I rinse again after I soak ? Why ? I use unsweetened plain pellets from our beet factory I will wean her slowly off thyrol L In regards to bloodwork -just check her insulin levels ? By her bloodwork she doesn’t appear to be ppid even though she has a creasty neck ? Thank you for advise Lori
On Jul 19, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Sherry Morse via groups.io <sherry_morse@...> wrote:
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Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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Lori Ricigliano
Thank you Lavinia
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Surprising enough her soles are not too soft as I’ve been crazy about powder and changing socks on her every single day as she lives in cloud Boots I’m starting to taper her bute starting today and will replace with Devils claw & ilm try the poultice Numotizine Thank you so very much for your help
On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Lavinia Fiscaletti <shilohmom@...> wrote: --
Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519 ) https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519 MYA CASE HISTORY : https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mya%20Case%20History OLIVER CASE HISTORY LINK: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LORI%20and%20OLIVER OLIVER PHOTOS: PEND
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Lori,
Magnesium is not magic. No supplement is. Get your hay analysis in place ASAP for minerals. Rinse BP again after you soak because surface iron and molasses traces may not have been fully removed. You want clear rinse water. Yes, Jiaogulan could help her greatly but she has to be off bute first and have a good trim in place plus a good trim interval established because it will make her feet grow faster. The cresty neck is caused by insulin resistance, not PPID. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Lori Ricigliano
Dr Kellon
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I will get hay tested - finding an extension that I can borrow a hay borer so I can get the proper samples of our hay You mentioned on my other horse Oliver (see link below ) that he should be put on Prascend in addition now even though not showing PPID in bloodwork - would that benefit mya or not in this case ? And why him and not her - the insulin or glucose level ? He is doing better on metformin since Thurs the pounding digital pulse has stopped . Thank you so very much Lori
On Jul 19, 2022, at 2:18 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
-- Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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Oliver's breed and late in life onset of laminitis are highly suspicious of PPID. The same may be true for Mya but her genetics predispose her to EMS. How long have you had her?
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Lori Ricigliano
Dr Kellon ,
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I’ve owned mya for 8 years - she never had an episode of founder in that time - she was always “club footed funny” on her right front though ….. but a year an half ago in late august I gave her her fall vaccinations- she had a slight crest to her neck - but had that for a few years - not bad & not a fat horse she was in condition ridden 4/5 times a week - she was eating the same as she always was - Purina equine senior & a grass/alfalfa mix hay - nothing else new - within two days of the vaccinations she was showing extreme lameness & bounding digital pulse in both front feet - she was in shoes at the time & looking back & knowing what I know now I should have insisted they remove them - farrier didn’t & she absessed out of both coronet bands first & I made him pull shoes & started to soak feet & then she absessed out soles & coronet bands started to heal . This was horrific. I didn’t start soaking hay til I joined this group as I was told just to feed grass hay instead …. Such bad advice - I feel horribly.
On Jul 19, 2022, at 3:14 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
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Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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Mya's issues are also highly suspicious of PPID. Is you vet amenable to putting her on pergolide at least for the seasonal rise then testing her after that?
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Lori Ricigliano
Yes if I let her know that you are recommending it she will follow your guideline I'm pretty sure - start both mya & Oliver at 1 pill prescend a day ?
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If there is a more economical option (compound company ) I’m sure she would be fine - I just haven’t used Prescend for several years so I don’t know what’s new out there . Please advise Thank you
On Jul 19, 2022, at 4:14 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
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Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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Hi Lori,
Here is the list of compounding pharmacies we recommend. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/ECIR-Links However, to start it might be easier to use Prascend because you can adjust the dose more easily by halving and quartering the pills. The most common starting dose is 1 mg Prascend a day. We recommend titrating up to the prescribed dose to avoid/minimize the pergolide 'veil', a series of temporary side effects including lethargy, inappetence and depression. Start with 1/4 pill and increase it by 1/4 every 3-4 days. Some horses have a very strong 'veil' and go off their feed entirely. These horses will do better if you give them APF a few days in advance and through the titration process. After 3 weeks at the prescribed dose we recommend redoing bloodwork to see if it's enough. -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Lori, when you update your Case History, can you add the insulin value to the Bloodwork table? TIA!
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Lori Ricigliano
Thank you so much - I will start with that & go slow .
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Lori
On Jul 20, 2022, at 9:16 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen <kirstenrasmussen3@...> wrote:
-- Lori R in MN - 2022 Owner of 3 Metabolic Horses MYA Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276519
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