Date
1 - 20 of 33
Hydration for recumbent horse (was Re: [ECIR] Solar Penetration)
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Sherry Morse
Nicolle, Are you salting her hay? Putting salt in a mash for her? Dosing her with salt to encourage her to drink? (To do that you can mix 1 oz of salt with 1-2 oz of kaolin pectin and administer with a dose syringe). Horses will usually reject food with salt in it if they're not used to it being added already so dosing might be the best way to get salt into her to get her to drink. You do NOT want to use electrolytes in a dehydrated horse as that will cause other problems. If needed you can have the vet do IV fluids as well but were she mine and I was not seeing improvement with the NSAIDs I would wean her off of them to avoid further kidney damage from something that isn't helping her pain level. You can read about that here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/How%20to%20Taper%20Off%20NSAIDs.pdf Possible alternatives for pain relief include Devil's Claw and you can read about switching to that here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20control,%20switching%20from%20Bute%20to%20Phyto-Quench.pdf
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 |
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celestinefarm
Nicolle, first I want to say I have so much empathy for what you are going through right now, it's so hard to know what to do for them when you don't have a clear cut diagnosis. I think you need to have a full on discussion with your vet as to what you know with her ( this isn't an endocrine type of laminitis ) and if you should continue to try to ferret out what is causing the laminitis and her other issues, such as depressed kidney function. IME, this kind of illness is systemic, and needs systemic treatment. IMO, her feet didn't cause this, her feet are a symptom. Potomac fever, some other type of tick borne disease, some of the possibilities have been listed by posters and Dr. Kellon here earlier in your initial thread. We can only offer you suggestions based on experience and what science based knowledge the group has. You and your vet are there and are the only ones who can take action and make decisions. Please know you have support here regardless of the outcome of this situation as many of us have walked your path before you.
-- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History |
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Nicolle Dupont
Thank you Sherry. She enjoys her salt and would likely eat 1 cup a day if left out.for her. I gave her 1 ml of ace yesterday to encourage her to lay down which she did. The edema was better last night. Is it ok to give her ace daily to encourage another position to prevent edema? On Thu., Jul. 21, 2022, 6:18 a.m. Sherry Morse via groups.io, <sherry_morse=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Nicolle Dupont
I just don't know how to stop the progression of the coffin bone. It has been 2 months of following protocols and she is getting worse not better. Has anyone experienced this? On Thu., Jul. 21, 2022, 7:13 a.m. Nicolle Dupont via groups.io, <nicolle8383=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Nicolle Dupont
What about Jiaogulan? I have read all the information on here just don't know if this is the right situation to use. On Thu., Jul. 21, 2022, 7:16 a.m. Nicolle Dupont, <nicolle8383@...> wrote:
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Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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celestinefarm
Nicole, I would not add anything else right now to her feed until you know more of what you are dealing with. She is not eating much and adding anything is going to likely increase her inappetence. You also won't know if any side effect is from the new supplement or from whatever systemic issue she is having.
Personally, if she were mine, I would take her off of her current antibiotic and unless really contraindicated, I would have her on IV oxytetracycline. We have pockets of Potomac fever that is endemic here in Michigan. I have never had it in my immediate area, but just 30 miles west of me it is almost guaranteed if you bring in a horse from outside the area that is not vaccinated for Potomac. The signs are recognizable at the start typically with diarrhea but not always,normally a fever, and the vets here will go ahead and administer without waiting for a test, which takes several days, and you lose precious time waiting. Your vet needs to either continue to blood test and search for a diagnosis while trying treatments that are the least hazardous to your mare or needs to start consulting with professionals who can help direct the diagnosis. She can survive sole penetration and even sloughing her hoof. An unchecked systemic infection or toxin she may not. -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History |
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Nicole,
The #1 priority of our protocol is to get a diagnosis of what is causing this. You don't have that yet. Given the situation, I agree with going with IV tetracycline then oral doxycycline. -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Feeding soaked hay will also give her quite a bit of water, which you are already doing.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album |
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Nicolle Dupont
Thank you Dr. Kellon. We started on Doxy last night. She cannot be transported so IV is not an option. Vets do not have any further ideas of what they could test for as a cause. They have done normal blood work, IR/PPID and T4. Lyme disease is in progress. The only other cause would be Hoary Allysum poisoning which may have triggered this but has not been ingested for two months. Are there any other tests you can recommend at this point? I believe also that something triggered this and it has not left her body. Any other drugs you can recommend? What about taking her off of the NSAIDs, perhaps that is what she cannot handle internally. I have found Jiaogulan here. Perhaps see if the Doxy makes anything better and if not replace NSAIDs with Jiaogulan? Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 1:28 PM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Nicole, --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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celestinefarm
Nicolle ,
IV Oxy Tetracycline is normally not a hospitalization requirement. An IV catheter is sewn into the neck and vet wrapped and then the vet comes daily to slowly administer a bolus of Oxy Tet. Some owners in my endemic area are taught how to slowly administer the bolus after the vet has done the first two days and no side effects have been noted, ( Oxy Tet administered quickly can cause collapse and possible death). Horses eat , drink , can be turned out in a paddock if they are not prone to rubbing their neck or have another horse across the fence that can pull out the catheter. You just need to supervise them. There is a test for Potomac fever available. As I mentioned before though, most vets' start treatment and don't wait for the test results, they simply confirm with the results. -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003 Tipperary Case History |
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Nicolle,
The NSAIDs do not actually treat anything. They are an attempt to control the pain but aren't very effective. Ask about using Tramadol instead. At least that wouldn't be damaging her kidneys. Do her legs and feet feel warm or cold? Is there any unidentified plant material in her hay? -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Thanks for this input Dawn.
Nicole, I wanted to add that I spent a week living in the stall with my older gelding Gabe after a choke. He was on IV at home. I often fell asleep there with him. You have to be very aware of keeping things very clean. If she is not standing not sure how that would work, but I will rely on others who have more experience than I, who hopefully have input. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2021-2022 |
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Nicolle Dupont
Dr Kellon, I will try to get Tramadol. Should I stop Gabapentin (11,200 mg) and Bute (3 grams) and just go to Tramadol or do I need to transfer over gradually? Are you not recommending Jiaogulan? Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:47 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Nicolle, --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Nicolle Dupont
Dr. Kellon Her legs and feet are cool. Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 7:47 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Nicolle, --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Are they cooler than the hinds and/or than other horses?
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Nicolle Dupont
I am heading out to the facility now and will double check. Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 8:26 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Are they cooler than the hinds and/or than other horses? --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Any chance there was a snake bite? Laminitis can be a delayed reaction.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com |
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Nicolle Dupont
Funny you say that, a friend's horse got bitten by a rattle snake last week, although she lives 2 - 3 hours away and in a much drier climate. Elsa first presented two months ago and I did not notice any marks or scabs on her at that time. I checked for ticks at that time and found nothing. Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 8:36 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Any chance there was a snake bite. Laminitis can be a delayed reaction. --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Nicolle Dupont
I am going out there now and wonder if I should stop Gabapentin and Bute? Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 8:36 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote: Any chance there was a snake bite. Laminitis can be a delayed reaction. --
Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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Nicolle Dupont
I have read the tapering off article. Would Gabapentin work the same way? or can I stop altogether? Regards, Nicolle Dupont 1831 Parkcrest Ave. Kamloops, BC V2B 4W8 Cell: 250-644-4002 Fax: 855-288-9410 On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 8:41 AM Nicolle Dupont via groups.io <nicolle8383=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Nicolle D in BC Canada 2022 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicolle%20and%20Elsa https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276759 |
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